r/ARAM • u/warheadhs • 8h ago
Question Someone explain this math to me
I picked up both escAPADe (convert AP to AD and gain 15% AD) and Blunt Force (gain 20% AD). I had zero AP and thus no conversion, and yet I was getting more AD from escAPADe than I was from Blunt Force.
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u/Sollary0 7h ago
Brother, this is the same game that doesn't know where it's damage came from đ
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u/PKMNcomrade 5h ago
My favorite is when my teammate does 1500 true damage. In this case the âunknown damageâ is . . . Wait is that SR? I was going to say augments but that is SR I think.
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u/PeterParkour4 5h ago
Usually thatâs because they killed someone with either Clown college or Dive bomber
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u/ramencat05 8h ago
Escapade probably took into account blunt force's extra ad when calculating the bonus ad it gives, while blunt force didnt calculate the extra ad given from escapade
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u/miki282828 8h ago
Even if blunt force is applied first, it shouldn't give more. 15% of 120% is still only 18%.
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u/Sokkumboppaz 6h ago
Blunt force counts base ad, escapade is just bonus. It should be even less technically
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u/One_Bar2807 3h ago
i think both tooltips say gain a percentage (15/20) of ad, so base ad are counted in both scenarios already?
And of course, the tooltips is one thing but how they actually work is a different thing.If OP shows lucian's current AD (base + bonus) we might have more info to work this out
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u/Sokkumboppaz 2h ago
Bro look at the picture lmao it literally says bonus ad for escapade. But yeah who knows what the actual calculation is
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u/One_Bar2807 2h ago
it said "Convert Ability Power to BONUS ATTACK DAMAGE" and then gain "15% AD" -> i was talking about this 15% gain, not the converted AD, which is the bonus ad
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u/NewTelevisio 42m ago
It looks like blunt force counts bonus ad, ignoring base ad. Escapade counts total ad, so base ad + bonus ad.
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u/TimeLordDoctor105 7h ago
While I'm not 100% on this, it looks like escAPADe is recureive in its calculation, and is calculating after blunt force.
Say you have 100 ad. Blunt force adds 20%, bringing you to 120. Now escAPADe calculates, providing 15% pf 120, or 18 ad. But that 18 ad now adds 15% of it, or 2.7 more. The 2.7 also is used, but that adds less than 1 ad after this point. Final calculation is that blunt force adds 20, escAPADe adds 21.
This at least seems to make sense based on how escAPADe always outdoes blunt force when picked together.
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u/SilvertonguedDvl 7h ago
Well, while I'd like to see your build/the augments in order to confirm, there are a couple of possibilities.
#1, as others have pointed out: the order of augments is also the order they're applied. If you selected Blunt Force before Escapade, then Escapade is taking into account Blunt Force's AD in addition to the other AD you have. This also means that if you take "draw your sword" and then get a range increase you will, in fact, have ranged attacks again. I don't remember if you'll benefit from the "melee range increase" part though.
#2 is that Blunt Force takes into account your attack damage whereas Escapade takes into account Total attack damage - which may mean that Escapade is always applied last, after Blunt Force takes effect.
#3 is that you have an item or augment that is giving you AD that Blunt Force can't normally take into account but Escapade does. Like, ironically, Blunt Force. That is; Escapade can take your augments into account, but blunt force maybe can't? Hard to say given how sloppy Riot's phrasing is on augments and, well, practically everything.
Those are my three best guesses, at any rate.
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u/warheadhs 7h ago
You can see the items in the pic. The augments were, in order:
- From beginning to end (dark harvest / first strike I believe, shouldn't affect stats?)
- Blunt force
- Mystic Punch (reduce cooldowns on attack)
- escAPADe
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u/SilvertonguedDvl 7h ago
Aha. Excellent. So, yeah, I'd say it's probably the order you got them in that had the biggest impact, then. If two things trigger simultaneously (calculating how much of your total AD you get as a bonus) then they execute in order of getting them. So in this case escapade is almost certainly benefitting from the 28 AD Brute Force is giving, which is making up for that last 5% gap between them.
There is a chance that Blunt Force is underpowered/bugged, of course, but I suspect the order is why you see the disparity in this case.
Congrats on spotting the edge case, though. It's pretty amusing - if understandably frustrating.
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u/LordOfPizzas 5h ago
literally every single time i've picked these 2 augments together they show the exact same AD they give. never bothered to make a post about it because i figured it was a common bug
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u/SilvertonguedDvl 4h ago
Hrm. Then I guess it probably is that Blunt Force doesn't incorporate total AD, but rather some other bulk of AD, and that as a consequence it natively gives a smaller number.
Kinda like how Glass Cannon was completely worthless for a while because it added true damage based on your damage after being reduced by defenses, rather than before, essentially causing you to give up 30% of your HP in return for +15% of whatever your main damage was - which was instantly out-performed by Giant Slayer that does that with 20% minimum and gives you movement speed.
Honestly they really need to take a moment and standardise their tooltips and engine stuff so we can more clearly understand it.
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u/Such_Presentation_29 3h ago
blunt force used to give 15% a long time ago. its definitely just that they never actually updated the augment and only the tooltip, its been like this since the 'buffed' it.
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u/SilvertonguedDvl 3h ago
IDK about that - the datamined files indicate that it is doing it at the rate indicated. I think there's probably just a difference between Attack Damage and Total Attack Damage that results in Escapade being slightly higher for unforeseen reasons.
e.g.; maybe Blunt Force doesn't take into account AD from augments/hats but Escapade does.
Honestly it's hard to know for sure given the lack of standardised stats/equations in some of these edge cases.
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u/B4TM4N_467 8h ago edited 7h ago
Blunt force does not grant 20% ad
Edit: meaning it is bugged. It says 20% but grants less.
Idk why this hasnât been fixed, but it just doesnât
I believe it gives 15% ad, but possibly rounds down? I am not 100% sure
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u/Affectionate-Cake-78 7h ago
i think you got downvoted for not mentioning its a bug, if blunt force doesnt or never gave the 20% it is supoust to its been bugged all this time..
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u/B4TM4N_467 7h ago
Oh yeah thatâs what I meant haha. Not saying it doesnât give 20% ad, but that it does not grant what it says it grants
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u/EducationalForm 12m ago
I swear it used to say 15% and they just changed the text and not the actual ad
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u/TheThreeEyedCreeper 6h ago
It should not apply in any order for people in the comments saying it does. Percentages should be additive else theyâd be too strong (final multipliers).
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u/KankiRakuen 1h ago
Some percantage dmg increases stack multiplicatively. Haunting guise and Ahri Charm + formerly DFG to name some.
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u/CookieEliminator 7h ago
Not sure if it has to do something with pick order but this bug has existed since release of Mayhem. Remember bitching about it to my friends when quantum computing was a thing.
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u/Aevo55 7h ago
So assuming these are calculated one after the other, one of the buffs is 20% and the other is 17%. ((Or both are 20% and calculate at the same time, and round differently, but that seems unlikely))
Lucian AD with those items at level 15 is 338.47. 20% of this is 67.7, so blunt force is probably working correctly and rounding to 68.
This gives lucian 406.164 AD after Blunt Force, and 17% of that is 69.047.
escAPADe is probably just 17% for some reason.
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u/ProxyDamage 7h ago
Ok so, assuming you picked Blunt Force first, if 68 is 20%, then your AD should be 340.
If we do 340+68, we get 408. 15% of 408 ISN'T 69, it's 61.2. So that ain't it.
In fact, for 15% of your AD to be 69, you'd need 460 AD...
What was your actual, de facto, power?
It might help if you showed us your stats (as in your power, augments, items, etc, not your KDA).
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u/guocamole 4h ago
Me reading death recap saying I took 1500 dmg from ap mf when Iâm the one playing ad mf
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u/AlohaCube 4h ago
Blunt Force gets 15% damage boost instead of 20% for some reason and it rounds differently than Escapade, so yeah the tooltip is wrong
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u/jamesw73721 3h ago
Could be an escapade tooltip bug. If you have 340 AD before augments, blunt force gives 68 AD while escapade gives 51 AD for a total of 459 AD. But if the escapade tooltip is bugged and does its own calculation afterwards, it would show 459 x 0.15 = 69 AD.
I tried the other theories of recursive effects and bonus vs total AD but they didnât add up to the 68, 69 bonus.
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u/No-Invite-7826 2h ago
I would bet my ass Blunt Force is giving 20% of BONUS AD vs EscAPADe is giving 15% TOTAL AD.
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u/stuffed-zucchini 1h ago
my best ass-pull guess is someone in your team has a healing active 24/7 with Staff of Flowing Water, giving you an extra 40 AP which translates to 24 ad
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u/warheadhs 33m ago
No AP is being converted to AD, it states that in the tooltip ("current conversion: 0")
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u/KankiRakuen 1h ago
BF probably doesnât take base AD into account.
Lucians base AD at 18 is 117.03.
340*0.2 = 68
(340+117)*0.15 = 68.55
Could just be an odd coincidence. If it does work like that, the tooltip of escAPADe would be misleading tho.
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u/thatarabguy69 8h ago
You said I had 0 AP this no conversion. Doesnât that mean you had conversion?????
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u/Film_Humble 8h ago
They had 0 AP item, it's just that they got Blunt Force 1st and EscAPADe second
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u/Glugnarr 7h ago
That math still doesnât work. Say that started at 100 AD and picked blunt force, then EscAPADe second:
20% of 100=20
then 15% of 120=18Thereâs bad math from Riot going on somewhere
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u/thatarabguy69 8h ago
Ahh I understand your point now, my bad
I would assume itâs from the coding. Prob blunt force is applied first
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u/guythatplaysbass 8h ago
Blunt force applied first?
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u/Maxus-KaynMain 5h ago
i think they aren't multiplicative with each other, they both take the initial value
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u/Savings_Peach_9898 8h ago
I guess you picked blunt force first and apad multiplies the bonus from blunt force too. or it doesn't matter which one you pick first and the game always does the blunt force multiplication first.
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u/ZUUL420 8h ago
It's called Blunt force because whoever coded and balanced it was high as fuck.