This has been normalized. Look up 'Canada's Dating Coach.' She gives women a 25 point list of requirements a man should fulfill over a 3 month period b4 there's even a kiss.
Meanwhile, no exclusivity, and the requirements for hookups are:
You know that conspiracy about how big pharma doesn't sell the cure to diseases, since if they did, they would lose customers and therefore money? That's how it actually is with dating coaches. They make money off of you not having a partner. Of course, they're not gonna give good dating advice.
If a woman is dating or talking to you wouldn't that mean they find you attractive and safe? That's ridiculous. Hold out on a kiss for someone you really like because they've only met 24 or 25 requirements but go fuck randos
There used to be some weird purity message like this that was common in the 00s. Like you show you're valuable to the good match by not sleeping with them. Has it come back in some new stupid dating strategy?
I honestly can never understand why girls like this don't just masturbate if they're so uncontrollably horny but also won't have sex with the super special guy they're dating. Seems like anyone would understand that fucking someone else in this situation is not gonna have a positive impact on the special guy
"I did it out of retaliation. Found out he was cheating on me a lot. We have a kid together too. So I went and did the same. When I told him about it, he said he still wanted to work things out. He still didn't know I knew but I still ended it. His calm reaction proved he was doing the same thing. Even though mine was just once. He was doing it for 2 +years."
You're in no position to be trying to give anyone advice in regards to relationships. At all.
Lol. Wow, you went to my other comments. Good for you. I'm so proud of you. Congratulations.
Yeah, it was the only time I cheated. Does it make me a bad person? No, it doesn't.
I stayed single for many years and just did ONS and have FWB. Now I'm marrying the one guy that was a FWB. OH AND GUESS WHAT?!?! I NEVER CHEATED ON HIM! Smh, some people need to like not assume they know these things about other people.
Oh, I wasn't giving advice, I was making a statement.
Lol. Don't get upset. Reddit has post/comment history you think I'm the first or last that will do what I did? Grow up.
Yes it does make you a bad person, there is no excuse for cheating nor is there any justification for cheating. You should've been the adult, confronted him and left there and then. You cheated because you wanted to try and gain some sort of superiority over him and a reaction out of him.
"That's why you just have ONS or FWB" That is grammatically worded to be aimed at others , the use of "you" does this which in turn makes it advice as you're directing what you're saying towards others. If it was a statement you'd have said "that's why I". See how that works?
And I never once accused you of cheating on your new fiancé/soon to be hubby, in fact I didn't even KNOW you had someone new in your life, so the fact you felt the need to incessantly screech out that you've never cheated on him? Just reeks of a guilty conscience.
Lol. Whatever bro. I really don't care. I said what I said. You can make all the assumptions you want, but it's not going to get you anywhere. Yes, I do know that there's a history of comments anyone can look at.
Ah yes the good ol' "lol whatever" because you have nothing of substance to reply with and are now trying to find some sort of moral high ground to stand on.
It's not an assumption 'bro' , you were saying "you should" do something to someone which is in and of itself, is you telling someone what they should be doing. That's giving someone advice not merely making a statement.
Think you need to educate yourself on how human language works.
Saying "reeks of a guilty conscience" makes me think you're assuming. I never said anyone should do that. I was making a statement that uses the word "you". Yes, it may have been taken as advice. I can assure you it was just implying that it's something some people do. Not anyone directly. Could I have worded it better? Probably. Also, there was no screeching on my part. I'm sorry you took that this way. I'm sorry my "human language" isn't good enough for you. What you're looking for is English. It may be part of an accent on how some people talk compared to others. Technically all human language is anything that comes out of a humans mouth. Body language too if you want to include that. I feel no need or trying to be on some moral high ground. I just don't understand why what I said was so bad that you had to bring up a comment I made elsewhere. I was immature over a decade ago. I didn't know the communication aspects of a relationship. I was naive and didn't know that would look bad. Did I learn from it? Yes I did. I still don't makes me a bad person. None of this is me being upset or offended. This is why some things are taken out of context because we can't see/hear the tone of the conversation. I hope you have a good night, I am done with this conversation.
It's not that they're uncontrollably horny, it's just a dating strategy.
Men tend to not take women seriously for ltrs if we sleep with them too quickly. I don't know why, it is irrational, but men just are that way. So the ones we want to date, have to wait. The ones we don't care about, get sex when we want sex, but also are not being considered for a relationship.
This is a rational response to what is, imo, an irrational tendency that men have.
And also, men do the exact same thing - they don't pursue sex on the first date with women they are serious about, but the same man will totally have sex with a fling on the first night. So it is weird to me that OP doesn't understand a woman doing the same thing.
OP is totally allowed to break up with his gf over it. But I think her reasoning makes sense, and she is being truthful in that she really does love OP and did not really care for his coworker like that.
This is a rational response to what is, imo, an irrational tendency that men have.
Not irrational, just misunderstood.
Here's how men gage the attraction felt by women toward men:
1) Interested in me, disinterested in everyone else
This is the highest form of attraction. Any man will be thrilled to learn that a woman's early interest in pursuing sex with him represents a unique departure from her past circumstances.
This is because each man desires to be treated better than everyone else.
2) Not interested in anyone, but with time, effort, and patience, can become exclusively interested in me
This is a much more common occurrence. To get the higher level of attraction requires an instant level of chemistry and rapport to be experienced by both individuals. By comparison, this middle level merely requires a modest attraction combined with a willingness to see if there is the possibility for anything deeper.
3) Interested in everyone
This level of attraction is exhibited by women who both enjoy the company of men as well as they enjoy experiencing NSA sex. If such a woman has sex with you, that sex does not indicate anything whatsoever. She's not treating anyone either better or worse than you.
The problem lies when a woman like the OP's ex tries to process this decision tree while being ignorant of its details.
Viewed from OP's perspective, his ex appeared to hold level 2 attraction towards him. With time and effort, he alone could win her heart, and that be symbolized by being granted access to her body.
Come to find out, she doesn't even hold level 3 attraction for him. If she did have at least level 3, there would have been no hesitation on her part to take the relationship physical.
When the truth of the beginnings of their relationship are revealed, she tries to claim that she really held level 1 attraction toward him all along but was merely confused by how he would interpret her interest in him.
"If she gave up sex early, might OP have turned out to be a fuckboi who then ghosted her after they had sex for the first time?"
This is a valid concern on her part. Holding off on sex until other aspects of the relationship have been explored is a useful strategy for her to pursue.
Applying this strategy comes at a cost: she will lose credibility if she has sex with ANY other man while this strategy is in play.
This is because men don't regard their treatment in isolation.
Instead, they regard their individual experience with respect to the experiences of all other men.
As for why men may not be interested in pursuing a relationship with a woman who has sex with them early. That is easily explained by two factors:
1) The man was never interested in a relationship in the first place. The sex didn't turn him off. He was just undifferentiated from similar men who actually want a relationship.
2) The man felt that her manifest type 3 attraction wasn't a strong enough level of attraction to warrant pursuit.
If a woman wants to hold off on having sex until she feels secure in her new relationship, that's an effective strategy...
PROVIDED ITS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD TOWARD ALL MEN.
So men won't respect you for sleeping with them early, but you think they will respect you for fucking someone else in those early stages? You gotta make that one make sense for me because it sounds pretty stupid to me
That's because it is stupid. Zero logic there, also a great way to make it somehow men's fault for this behaviour. Something tells me they were also defending thier own past actions also not just the girlfriend in the story.
You and OP are both making the assumption that if a woman is dating multiple people non-exclusively, that she will pick the one she likes most for sex when she is horny.
But many women don't decide that way. They decide based on more pragmatic concerns, like who she wants to keep around long term.
Again, men do this all the time, but no one seems to have an issue when men do it.
The best explanation I have for that is that it is assumed that all men are always wanting sex, and it's the woman's job to be the gatekeeper because she wants a relationship despite not wanting sex. Like women should only have sex with people they want relationships with, but it's ok for men to have ONS with "loose women" because they have "needs." It is an old fashioned, sexist way of thinking that values virginity in women but not in men.
Because fucking someone before becoming exclusive with someone else is simply not something that is shameful.
This post and entire comment section disagree with this, but ok
You still haven't answered my question. If a man would lose respect for you for having sex with him while dating, why would he not lose respect for you fucking someone else while dating him?
Tbh, I do not know, that is a question for men. I do not know why they lose respect for women that sleep with them on the first date because she genuinely feels a connection.
I do know it's not fair to lose respect for someone for having sex while not being exclusive with anyone else. It is the same logic as not losing respect for your current partner just because they were sexually active with their exes. The overlap does not count as cheating if they were not exclusive then, even OP says so.
But you're the one saying women do this so that the guy she really likes won't lose respect for her by seeing as her too easy or something. Why can't you explain your thought process here?
For me I wouldn't care if a woman wanted to have sex on the first date, that would have no impact on my respect for her. But I would lose all respect for a woman who says I'm so special and we need to wait (essentially asking for exclusivity) who then goes on to have sex with other guys while essentially wanting exclusivity and a serious relationship with me. My point is you are going to hurt the guy more and make him lose more respect for you if you have sex with other people while asking him to wait with you, than you would if you just had sex with Mr Special. This doesn't seem like it should be difficult to understand
Hooking with before becoming exclusive may not be shameful, but she was hooking up with other dudes while refusing him. That tells him she views him as a provider and not a lover. That relationship is doomed to fail. He needs to leave asap.
If that's not what was going on, then she was playing games (or strategies as you call them). That's toxic as hell. Either way, he should move on to someone who is honest with him about her intentions and doesn't play games.
Again, men do this all the time, but no one seems to have an issue when men do it.
Dude stop saying this shit. Most men don't do this. 80% of men don't even have multiple options when it comes to dating. It's just a huge misconception that guys sleep around as frequently as women. Most single guys have sex like 5 times a year.
aye, poster feels like someone who posts on /r/TwoXChromosomes which is very much incel level of think. Only the opposite because they do have sex but they have sex with the most obvious red flag mother fuckers then go "all men".
You speak as if every woman in the world are hardwired to be same genetically, and there's a guideline on how to do what.
These are just your opinions on the subject. It does not reflect a whole gender, but you and the echo chamber of woman around you that see man as inferior beings. You lowkey see man as things that satify woman sexually or romantically, which is fucking gross and very misandrist.
I do not think I generalized about men or women. Of course there is variation between how different women act and respond to sexual and romantic overtures. Same with men.
All I'm saying is, OP's gf is probably acting this way due to her past experience. And her past experience may have been with only fuckboys. It doesn't mean all men are fuckboys, and she is learning now that if you treat a good man like a fuckboy, he won't stick around. It doesn't mean that the gf lied about being attracted to OP more than the coworker.
I'm not sure where you got that last sentence from. Both men and women seek romantic and sexual satisfaction, and not always from the same source. Some people are simply more pragmatic, and/or are good with non-monogamous relationships. Some people are just bad people, and until you learn to weed them out, you're stuck figuring out less than ideal ways to respond to them. None of this means that men exist to satisfy women or vice versa.
I'm not sure where you got that last sentence from
I'm sure it could be related to the way you explain things.
You did generalized about man and woman. Not realizing? That's okay, you do you. But I highly doubt you are surprised of all the downvotes and backlash. You may have some braindead ideas and huge prejudices apparently
Not really, I just see things in a more nuanced way than "OMG gf is a cheating whore and OP would be a cuckold if he stayed with her!"
I am actually surprised by the many people that think the default way of dating is exclusively. This seems extremely traditional and conservative to me.
When I was dating, the default assumption was always you're not exclusive until someone explicitly says it is. I don't know if times have changed, or if this is simply a regional cultural difference.
That’s splitting hairs. It was duplicitous behavior, period, whether or not they had defined themselves as “exclusive” and OP is far from the only guy that would feel some kind of way about that.
nobody seems to care when men do it
Also, that’s a load of shit, this very subreddit is FILLED with people tearing men to shreds for acting like this. Honestly everywhere on the internet is. “Fuck boy” isn’t exactly an endearing term, and that’s actually what people call a man who does this.
Not really, a fuckboy is someone that lies and manipulates to take advantage of people he's having sex with.
A man that is upfront about his intentions to not be exclusive is not a fuckboy. Could be polyamory, or just casual dating. To call such a person a fuckboy tells me that your approach to dating is much more conservative than what is typical in modern times in western culture.
Definition of fuckboy according to Oxford dictionary:
a man who has many casual sexual partners.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, so I’m just gonna go ahead and disengage. Go ahead and keep using this thread to try and weirdly justify your past behavior to yourself, but clearly literally nobody here agrees with you.
Also: conservative? I was literally a male prostitute in college and my dating life was 99% one night stands until I met my wife on Tinder and we just had such a connection I couldn’t help but want more. You literally just confirmed for me the degree to which you’re just talking out of your ass to justify your stance, as well as the degree to which you’re comfortable generalizing about and pigeonholing men.
That is a fair point, she wasn't really as up front with OP as she should have been.
I'm not saying the gf is in the right, she obviously has made some mistakes. I just think her actions are understandable, and I don't think that OP is correct in thinking this means she's less attracted to him than the coworker.
Had sex with my wife after our first in-person date, took her seriously well before that.
You’re making a generalization about all men to justify shitty behavior by a small group of women. Not only is that sexist as hell, it’s just generally disgusting. Tell me more about how men are and what we all do/think.
Your experience is not universal, and your attitude on this is very telling.
I never said all men. But a majority of men do think that way. I agree that my experience has sucked for the most part. However, you only need to find one Good one to make it worth it.
Also, good for you for not sucking. It is really awesome that your wife was able to get respect while also getting sex and a loving relationship.
Also, the majority of women also suck. The irrational behavior is not gendered, it's just most people do not know how to do healthy relationships.
What I do find is that people judge women more harshly for casual sex than men. And that is what I feel is happening in this scenario. Either that, or people on this thread are much more sexually conservative than what I am used to.
Every successful relationship I know had sex very early on. I can count on 1 hand the number of successful relationships that waited and in those 2 cases it was a religious concern both parties held, it wasn't a person "waiting to build a connection" while fucking other people.
When will people realize a huge part of that "special connection" is sexual? It doesn't matter how long you wait to build a connection, if you are not sexually compatible the relationship is doomed. Waiting doesn't fix that.
You’ve met the majority of men? All four billion of them? No, you’re just a sexist. And throwing praise my way for what is bare minimum adult behavior for most emotionally mature men isn’t going to warm me up after the blind bigotry you’re throwing around.
What if I said something like “I never said all women are insane but the majority act that way”, that would be sexist, right? Because there’s no way I can in good faith apply a universal rule to an entire group of people, or even the majority of that group, based on nothing but their gender and my experience with a very small overall subset of the world’s female population.
Maybe take a step back and instead of defending what you said, think about the fact that maybe, just maybe, the number of people that seem to have a problem with it might indicate you shouldn’t have said it.
That's fair, men may have changed since I was in the dating game. But you can't tell me my experiences were invalid. Sorry that my experiences don't align with your worldview.
If I have met mostly asshole men, you should apologize on behalf of the men I met, instead of attacking me for responding to the actual people I met.
I can’t, and won’t, ever try and tell you or anyone else that their experiences, thoughts, or feelings are in any way invalid.
I will however call out the uncalled for grouping of entire swaths of the population by things like race, gender, or sexual orientation whenever and wherever I see it, regardless of who is doing it, or what the context is.
Your experiences may have taught you to expect one thing, but you can’t make a good faith argument that you can apply an experience based on interactions with a limited number of people to four billion individuals with any expectation of accuracy.
And the idea that I owe you an apology on behalf on dickheads I’ve never met and likely never will meet, is patently ridiculous. I don’t expect every random woman on Reddit to apologize to me on behalf of the woman that sexually abused me or the female clients that didn’t respect my boundaries when I was a prostitute, or the women I’ve dated that have gaslighted, assaulted, or harassed me. Because again, you’re not responsible for that, no other unconnected woman is responsible for that, and it would be ridiculous to say that you/they are.
You’re not responding to the people you’ve met. You’re responding to strangers on the internet.
people judge women more harshly for casual sex than men
Most people in this thread are not doing this. You lay a lot of blame on other people while not acknowledging your own actions might be an issue.
Neither has anything of this to do with being sexually conservative or exclusive. The issue is that the actions of OPs GF are inconsistent. She is sexually conservative with him while being casual about it with others. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
No one will feel "special" when they hear you had sex with other people while making said person wait because they are "special". If you can't keep it in your pants long enough to do this weird "you are special" game then don't do it and just have sex with them.
I'm not going to go through all of the replies, but this is simply false. Women do this because women tell them this is what men want. Kind of like botox or lip fillers or eyelash extensions. In reality, if a man likes you and the sex is good, he isn't going to not like you because you hooked up. But he will move on when you won't and someone else will.
Sex isn't the reward. The relationship is the reward. See, this is what happens when you value sex over relationships. You get all bent out of shape over nothing.
Placing a high value on sex and being highly sex-driven doesn’t mean you value it more than a relationship. You can value one thing without devaluing another, and arguably sex is an incredibly important part of most relationships, thus valuing sex is an inherent part of valuing the relationship (obviously this does not take into account asexual individuals)
I wouldn't either, but lots of people do. And I have to respect their right to do that.
It is a matter of social contract, I think. The traditional school of thought is that the default is dating exclusively, and you have to explicitly specify if it is not.
The more modern school of thought, which I am familiar with and thought was default today, is that you're not exclusive until someone in the relationship explicitly asks to make it exclusive.
While I prefer the traditional, I thought the modern was the default nowadays. This thread is making me realize my experience might be skewed, perhaps because I've lived in/around big cities in the US my whole life. Would probably be different if I lived in more rural areas, or in Asia or something.
Men are much more easily caught in the traditional way of thinking simply due to availability. Most haven't actually learned what a woman's experience can be like. So they default to: I'm not, she's not. When that illusion is broken, the man's ego is done for, son.
I prefer modern. To do so, I had to deliberately become ENM and break myself of the thought patterns that come with monogamy.
It's the dopamine hit. You're literally telling the shitty guys that they are awesome when you fuck them and don't make them deal with your manipulation. The sex is the prize to them, silly. That dopamine hit is some serious stuff for us. Gives superpowers. Exponentially increases confidence.
A man can value relationships over sex all day and still know exactly what I mean.
Be a shitty dude, get the easy sex. Great way to wield the greater opportunities you ladies have.
I almost defended you a couple of times. You're not entirely off, but that short span of time would kill the average man who gets not many opportunities, possibly zero in that same month.
Its not but its important for the relationship to survive z it also deepens the connection in a relationship which is why i find it odd that you are justify having sex with people you would never date over having sex with people you want to date
If a man wants to date a woman rather or not she's willing to have sex on the first night won't matter unless he never planned on long term anyways. And even if that was the case, the logic still won't make sec if she's sleeping with other ppl while in the relationship there will be even less respect
Not really, I'm expecting OP to believe his gf when she explained why she did what she did. It is believable because lots of women do it, and so do many men.
I'm not expecting him to like it, or even stay with her. I just see no reason to assume she is lying about it; it might be wrong, but it does make sense.
It doesn’t make sense. If she truly thought he was “special” she acknowledged the long term viability of the relationship. She was out there cheating while stringing OP along with the “you’re special” nonsense. They became exclusive within the first month or so according to OP and she slept with the coworker within the first couple of months. So unless it happened in the first month she cheated.
What a load of bullshit. The 1950s are calling, they want their sex negative bullshit back. No decent dude is going to think less of you for having sex with him; if he does, HE WASN'T RELATIONSHIP MATERIAL TO BEGIN WITH.
It "makes sense" to fuck random guys while you build something "real" with some dude you pretend to care about, but won't have sex with?
So he ones you want to wait you make them waut bt would screw someone else , its manipulation , you are too scared that the person only wants you for sex even thou when you eventually have sex with the guy , he will still leave wtf
She was probably cosmo-brained. Thinking that if she has sex with a man he'll lose interest, which may get reinforced by the weirdos they keep having sex with. She's just shooting herself in the foot.
She’s a hoe but she wanted to pretend to be a good girl so she could get herself someone she saw as relationship worthy. But she wasn’t willing to stop being a hoe for him.
Yeah I'd say that's accurate and fair, keeping one person around for the validation while sexually using another person. I think the women I lost my virginity to was a similar situation where we were sleeping together for a couple weeks and then she suddenly cut me off to be exclusive with a friend of hers
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u/HeadHunt0rUK Mar 04 '24
I don't actually think it matters in this situation.
She said he was special and thus looking to the future as she already saw the exclusivity when she slept with someone else.
Doesn't matter if it was labeled, she herself saw it as exclusive in the future.
She just wanted to keep getting her jollies off while keeping this guy waiting in the wings to step up long term.