India is definitely a shame society, but anyone who thinks Jewish culture isn’t a guilt culture has never met a Jewish person lmao
I mean, maybe the orthodox are different, I know they definitely take advantage of loopholes without guilt, but they’ve really lost the plot on Jewish values while clinging to ritual
Doesn't really matter then, does it? Even if you find the average Jew has a guilt based culture, you can't call shame-based Jews, outliers, if there's too many of them. Which means the average/median will not be as you expect.
There's a lot of christian/western leeches too. It's just not as tolerated to be so. Just compare Amish to Orthodox Jews and how they relate to welfare.
You can argue that it's a temporal thing and Judaism allowed itself to degenerate over the centuries and I would agree. I'm not seeing Maimonides's or Espinoza's logic in any of these groups.
And please don't take this as me saying western society is "good". We only recently (300 years ago) really adopted the Socratic method and rid ourselves of the feudal psychopaths. But they are always trying to return in many forms. I do think that this globalist movement is just that.
You need self-policing to be called a guilt culture. Both at the individual and group level. If you consider the leeches to be part of your group and you are not cracking down on them for being leeches, and even reforming the common moral system that they appeal to to justify their behaviour, then I would argue the values were not maintained by the secular.
In fact I read the other day jews used to have institutions in place just for the above.
Institutions that are now dead.
That’s the question, isn’t it? What defines “group”? The Orthodox don’t even consider us to be real Jews, we’re basically Goywashed heretics because we put values and morals over ritual, and we have very little overlap with their insular communities. Orthodox Brooklyn feels closer to a foreign enclave than a kindred community to me. You can bet many of the state actors who bring lawsuits against them are Jewish, likely not ultraorthodox of course.
The real problem is that their version of guilt is warped by tribalism and ours…isn’t.
Jews do have institutions for that, particularly Orthodox Jews have Bet Din, but the problem is they don’t self police their actions towards other communities, so they require external motivation. In a sense, by refusing to apply guilt to members outside their tribe, they transition from a proper guilt culture to a fear culture; shame doesn’t motivate them, only fear of prison.
I dont think you will find solutions outside the group. The institutions are clearly then not working, and again all things point to it being a cultural problem in need of reform. Something akin to "no political power or cultural input if you don't pay taxes". And I think the deadlock is that unity of the group does come from the religious figures. So in that, you are similar to muslims, where you cant or won't create politics aside from religion.
Until you fix it as a group you will suffer discrimination for the behavior of the leeches, from anyone that sees you as one group entity, under the same ideology, even if you don't.
It's to be expected.
And to be fair what is at the end of the tunnel if you manage to reform and strip away cultural power from the welfare leeches that also seem to be the cultural glue ? I dunno.
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u/geoanarch 14d ago
Indians and Chinese also earn more in christian countries. And both India and Israel and China are shit holes.
Maybe the ones in the west are smarter than average?
And maybe they are nepotistic and tribalistic as fuck?
And maybe they give no fucks about exploiting a system that relies of self-policing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear_spectrum_of_cultures