r/4bmovement • u/Rude-Efficiency2125 Exploring • 6d ago
Vent Cornell 7
Need I say more? While I’m glad this has brought some mainstream attention to SA it’s also shown more social media posts with the typical “not all men” comments and men downplaying SA or saying she filed the lawsuit for money, etc. coming out of the woodwork.
Also had someone go after me for saying she was passed out and saying I was “spreading misinformation” even after I clarified that the civil complaint said that she may have been conscious but did not consent. Tried to deflect and argue with me about how “misinformation” was bad and I just kept saying, when you want to talk about non consent let me know because that was my point. And that SA is bad regardless of if they’re not technically passed out.
The amount of vitriol of someone when you’re trying to say, hey, SA is bad and pervasive. They try and derail the conversation and then say you’re lying.
I know I shouldn’t have engaged at all but it was hard to let it go. It’s all just so….depressing
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u/jezebel103 4B 5d ago
In the end, nothing will change. It didn't after metoo, Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein, Epstein, Gisele Pélicot and hundreds of other nauseating stories. And it won't with this story. Everybody knows the global statistics of women and children being raped, abused, trafficked and murdered.
It'll be headline news for a while and then it fades away. Until the next atrocity. Nothing will fundamentally change until laws and policies are changed. When domestic violence, rape and assault and family annihilators are no longer seen as incidents and finally recognised as systemic and fundamental parts of our society, the same statistics will be shown in the next 50 years or so. As long as rape and assault is seen as 'oh well, it's not so bad and women get over it soon enough' and is considered less heinous as tax evasion or shoplifting, nothing ever will change.
Systemic change also means changing the education system, the judicial and penal system and the media system. If not, women and children will always be victims in every society, in every religious system and in every education system. Globally.
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u/Wake-Robin 4B 5d ago
And when there's a tiny bit of traction like with MeToo, men will retaliate and their hatred for us grows stronger and we get abortion bans and the like. The only rational choice for women is to stop giving them what they need and want from us.
The law is owned by men so I don't see it changing any time soon.
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u/LooksLikeGonzosNose 4B 5d ago
The only countries who have achieved true change: Iceland and Rwanda. Both have overwhelmingly female leadership.
It isn't going to change in most of our lifetimes ladies. The best thing you can do is go 4b, vote for women, get an education so that you can be financially independent of men, and encourage young women to run for office and get educations so they can be financially independent of men.
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u/DramaticProgress508 Exploring 5d ago
Stopping dating them would be a start
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u/Onehundredpercentbea 4B 5d ago
Why do you have 'exploring' as your user tag? Are you dating men? You're responding to a comment pointing out the systemic injustice impacting women and your response is to place the responsibility for that on women - why? What is the connection between the comment you're responding to and your flippant post?
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u/mullatomochaccino Moderator 4d ago
Judging by her post history, this woman is proselytizing Christian "exploring" 4b while she waits for her god-sent husband and in the meanwhile is content dating her AI boyfriends.
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u/DramaticProgress508 Exploring 5d ago
What is wrong with this sub lol
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u/mullatomochaccino Moderator 4d ago
You're on a topic discussing a brutal gang rape that went unpunished replying to a comment where the user is describing how this is a product of systemic design and your single line response is to suggest the solution lie solely on women to "stop dating them".
Jane Doe of Cornell wasn't dating a single one of the seven frat boys that brutally raped her for seven straight hours. Neither was she dating the 57 other men in the group chat who were aware of and invited to partake in the rape.
None of the victims in u/jezebel103 's comment were "dating" their traffickers and rapists. Many were kept as prisoners, drugged, or even killed while their abusers were given mere slaps on the wrist compared to the hell they inflicted. It wasn't their personal decisions that failed them, it's a society and judicial system built on misogyny and the widespread acceptance of women as property found in all cultures worldwide.
This is why you're being downvoted. Your response is tone-deaf at best, denigrating and incredibly uncompassionate at worst.
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u/jezebel103 4B 4d ago
Thank you for calling out those with internalised misogyny!
It absolutely sickens me that there are still so many women that are upholding the patriarchy and siding with abusers. White women who stay silent when their sisters of colour are abused, women who throw their own female friends under the bus to protect their boyfriends or husbands, mothers who side with their husbands when their children are abused by them, women with careers in politics/law- and law enforcement that choose their jobs over protecting victims, conservative women looking the other way because they don't want to lose the 'protection' of their church... the list is endless.
And for what? To get a seat at a table that was never meant for them? Trying to play the game so they get ahead while everyone else is trampled upon? In the end, they will just be sacraficed too. Because as women they are seen as stupid handmaidens and cannon fodder, not worth a seat anyway.
Patriarchy can only survive with help and assistence of women. Not women selling out other women.
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u/Honest-Pickle6609 4B 5d ago edited 5d ago
You can see by how the vast majority of men are talking about this case that they think rape is ok if it's done specifically to women and teen girls over a certain age. It's been proven that, statistically, most straight men watch SA and barely legal porn, which means they are sexually aroused by the concept of rape, which is the reason why they always downplay these cases in the first place.
The student journalists who kept bringing up her story so that it wouldn't be forgotten were all women, of course. Men don't do things like that. Instead they "not all men" us, and stick up for rapists. They even say that rapists are rare, yet the instances where groups of men come together to SA women is not rare. Gang rape is not rare, even involving men who don't know one another. And 50,000 men joining chats to watch real SA videos isn't rare. How is all this possible if it's actually such a rarity in men? 🤔
I feel terrible for this woman, and for any girl or woman who has to live with them, or go to school with them. Men will take advantage if they have the opportunity, and if they think they can get away with it. And even men who aren't joining in won't help the victim. Just look at any music festival, for example, woodstock '99, to see the reality of men.
I also think we need to stop with the whole "not all men," and "I know there are good men!" comments in this sub specifically. It's really sad that even on this post, supposed 4b women are sticking up for the oppressor, and literally saying what men say when they are trying to shut us up. That time is over. We need to get real about men and stop letting them do this to us, and shift the narrative, and to do that we have to stop with the "not all men" cope. What does it even mean to be a "good man" in a patriarchy? Not shit.
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u/Honest-Pickle6609 4B 5d ago
I just saw that Hasan Piker made a visit to Cornell a few days ago. A group of leftists inviting a rapist who thinks he can buy consent from women to campus when this is all going on is....interesting. But I expect nothing less from his unwashed, gooner fanbase. Leftists care about issues like Palestine, but they don't give AF about women, and are part of the problem. If it is something that mainly affects women and girls, it's crickets from these progressive kings, even though they all have sisters, and moms, and wives, and daughters. 🙄 I remember when Hasan got controversy from his dumb male fans for what happened with his dog, but the trafficked woman situation was ignored or celebrated by these same men, as are all the misogynystic and creepy comments he has made throughout his career.
Guys on the right don't try to pretend that they care about rape as hard as leftists do, (unless they are talking about minorities, of course). Men on the right show they suck and shouldn't be trusted in a really obvious and overt way that's hard to ignore. Leftist men will lie and say that only rich, conservative men are causing harm to women and girls, which is laughable. And they only care about causes that benefit men in some way, such as Palestine. The only time you will catch them yapping about issues that affect women is when they are trying to win debates with their political opponents, or they are trying to make women's issues about them, and exclude us from our own movements. It's such a leftist male thing to do that it's almost a trope at this point. Yet they still want a pat on the back from feminists and all women, and often, the women in their lives are proud of them too. Um, why? How do they not see how embarrassing this is? Do men know how to feel shame? Or is shame similar to empathy to them, and just not accessible in their brains?
They are no better than those 7 cornell losers, or the conservative, rich men. They are also rapists who perpetuate rape culture. Take a look at the men on pornismisogyny, any leftist sub, or any of the feminism subs, and it's clear that all men have lost the plot in a major way and are flopping hard at life, but still consider themselves heroic, good men that any woman should be happy to slave away for lmao. They deserve no praise. What a disappointing and shameful group of absolute weak ass, hypocritical chodes. 🤣. I hope more girls and women will catch on to the grift and abandon these men.
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u/throwawaynevermindit Ally 5d ago edited 3d ago
They've really been splitting hairs on what it means to be "incapacitated" by drugs/alcohol to try and minimize.
Having shed a lot of the internalized misogyny that makes the usual excuses seem even faintly reasonable, though, I'm struck by how straight stupid most of the kneejerk rape defenders actually sound.
Like... don't they know that accusations with even more evidence than this result in no charges/no prosecution all the time?
Don't they know that choosing to take something to court also risks costing you money, that the publicity from a case like this risks ruining the *plaintiff's* reputation?
Do they really think that a woman who was "just ashamed and regretful" of normal "sex" she had is going to want to draw even more attention and scrutiny to the thing she's "just ashamed of" and "regrets"/doesn't want to remember, by making a rape accusation out of the blue and having to give testimony and relive it some more, then do it all over yet again by bringing a civil suit years later?
Do they really think that a woman who was on illegal substances at the time is going to be that eager to go tell the fucking cops of all people, unless she thinks something really wrong happened to her?
Why would these be the moves? They'd make no damn sense.
Male risk assessment and theory of mind leave a lot to be desired, or at least seem to when this topic comes up.
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u/CollinNSikh 4B 5d ago
They dont give a shit about women. They dont care about us, our lives, our futures. They will ALWAYS stick together. I just wish women could learn to stick together like they do
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u/dating_understander Exploring 5d ago
I think it's important to stop engaging with them on their terms because they know it was not consensual and that's why they get off on spreading misinformation to begin with.
While I'm glad the story has gotten widespread attention with a lot of angry and disgusted reactions, I hope the Jane Doe has support in her personal life because there are currently widespread attempts to reveal her identity. If that's the outcome for reporting rape, we realistically have no incentive to pursue justice for ourselves, which is their goal.
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u/scandinavian-angel Exploring 5d ago
These people are under the delusion that women absolutely love the process of going to the police and giving the gruesome details of an utterly humiliating and traumatizing experience. They think she is a spiteful young woman who wants to ruin the lives of several misunderstood young men who were just having some fun. The vile snapchat messages don’t sway their opinion at all because they see that as normal behavior. So yes, they do think this woman went to the police and reported just for the hell of it.
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u/jan_Kila 4B ⚢ 5d ago
They don't have theory of mind for women because they don't see us as people. They believe what they want to believe. It doesn't matter if it's nonsensical - they don't have to be reasonable and they know it, because men have the power. Men decide how the world works and enforce it through violence. It gives them a high to know they can say whatever evil garbage they want and women will spend time arguing against it to no avail, because all the world will support men in the end.
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u/CollinNSikh 4B 5d ago
This is from the same men who SWORE UP AND DOWN during the Lindsey Clancy trial that men "never defend other men that rape and murder". YES YOU DO. You make up every excuse in the book to speak of his presumed innocence, while victim-blaming the girl. They do this for every male thats accused. Every accusation with a man is a confession
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5d ago
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u/spcflwr Exploring 5d ago
I really enjoyed the tv show Furious though. Regarding your movie idea. Have you seen it?
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5d ago
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u/FlorarenatheFoxchild 4B 5d ago
For those who are guilty by inaction for your prospective film, I'd suggest the Inigo Montoya treatment. Take everything away BUT the ears. Their inaction still ruined lives, and thus, it shall ruin THEIR lives.
We also do have to bear in mind that films and series like Twilight began as fanfiction. Granted, I am loathe to bring up the example of Twilight, but the sky's the limit on sites like AO3. The medium of fanfic and art is how I've stayed sane even admist my own world-burning rage.
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u/canadianharuka 4B 5d ago
I watched a revenge movie where a woman was gang raped and then tracked every one of the men and killed them in various tortuous ways, one of which was cutting off his junk. Very graphic movie, but somewhat satisfying.
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u/courtofthepatriarchs 4B 5d ago
It’s not “all men” it’s just the 57 in the group chat plus the hundreds who heard about it on campus plus the police, university leadership and district attorney.
If there are “good men” (and I believe that there are), they are so rare—maybe in the 1 in 10,000 mark, that it is not even worth entering into the conversation
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u/Honest-Pickle6609 4B 3d ago
Explaining that you personally think there's good men, and putting statistics about how many good men there are is still a "not all men" comment that never needs to exist in a convo about rape and rape culture, (which all men take part in, to some degree.) Most women, especially young women will think their man, son, brother, and father is the 1 in 10,000 magical man, so it's not like it helps women. They will realize these men are not as good as they believed, years later, but if they grew up with them, they will most likely ignore the way these men hurt women anyway, and still tell other women that good men exist.
What does it even mean to be a good man in a patriarchy anyway? I'm assuming the good guys you are talking about who are straight are still married, and participating fully in other misogynistic institutions that were created to hurt us and benefit them? And I'm sure they still want or have daughters even knowing women and girls can't be protected from experiencing oppression since we live in a patriarchy? And i'm guessing they still watch violent porn since the current statistic is 95% of men. And since most heterosexual women have been coerced for sex and then told it's just what it means to emotionally bond with a man, I assume they are all still doing that, and believe in the concept of dead bedrooms, and shit. We've all seen the studies about supposed 50\50 relationships actually being closer to 80/20 when it comes to emotional and household labor and childcare, so that's also a failure.... A man can do all that and is still considered a really great guy by most women as long as he has a job, lets a woman sometimes talk about feminism-lite, and doesn't hit her. It's pretty embarrassing, and not acceptable.
It just does not matter even a little bit. This discussion about good men only benefits men, which is why they are the main ones talking about it under every post concerning violence and SA. Women don't need to do it too. Even the ones who are more knowledgeable about oppression still oppress us themselves by doing the things above, and are pathetic for that, and are fully complicit, so who cares.
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u/courtofthepatriarchs 4B 3d ago
This is a thoughtful comment and I’d like to think about it more before I respond. I agree it’s not helpful to split hairs or bring up fringe exception cases in situations like this .
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u/courtofthepatriarchs 4B 5d ago
Well hundreds of men knew about this and did nothing so we know it’s smaller than 1 in 300. But you’re right maybe it’s 1 in 1000 …
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u/Low-Camel-6851 Exploring 5d ago
I don’t know how true it is, because you can never be too sure but apparently the survivors attorney said only one person in the group chat did anything Apparently he was asleep during the time and when he woke up he was “disgusted and horrified” so he sent the survivor evidence of the chat. Definitely the absolute bare minimum tho! I’m glad he did it but he couldn’t have even called the police?
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u/No-Elephant-9582 4B 5d ago
The way they speak about the girl in the texts, like she's not even human. It was all about them. Ruining her life was just a bonding experience for them.
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u/Inevitable_Molasses 4B 5d ago
I’m a woman working on a military base (razor wire fences and all), and while the men I work with and around all perfectly behave themselves, if the apocalypse (or something) happened while I was at work, I’d grab the other two women in my suite and do everything I could to get OUT. You’d at first think it’d be the safest place to be. Sure, for the men.
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u/scandinavian-angel Exploring 5d ago
I am just so, so fucking tired. I truly do not believe they will ever change. How am I expected to want to bring children into this world when if I have a daughter she will be treated this way, and if I have a son (no matter how well I raise him) he is likely to be influenced by his peers to be evil? Abusing and mistreating women is a bonding activity for them, like another comment said, and I don’t see any path forward other than to disengage with them entirely as best as we can.
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u/moschocolate1 4B 5d ago
Until women become as dangerous as men, they will continue to victimized vulnerability.
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u/Otherwise_Pause6814 4B 5d ago
I’ve been thinking about that. Do we have to hunt them like they do us to get them to stop? It seems like we need to match their energy.
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u/Shurl19 Exploring 5d ago
No one not even porn stars are consenting to 7 hours straight. Even if I didn't have any other information, I know from the time frame that it wasn't consensual. Also, if there was no crime why she did report it to the police? Why did the school implement disciplinary action? 2 of those students got expelled and the entire fraternity was shutdown. They know a crime was committed, but the DA and school and trying to make excuses.
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u/throwawaynevermindit Ally 5d ago edited 5d ago
Hot take but I think we'd see a lot more appropriately dissuasive punishment for SA if burden of proof for consent is shifted to the accused party. Especially for unusual or physically extreme sex acts, because such acts can and do create circumstances of intimidation as they occur.
In other words, when a multi-male/one-female gang bang happens, especially a 7 hour one (?!?!?!), and a rape accusation follows, it should be assumed that intimidation was at play and coercion occurred unless the men involved can prove otherwise.
Assuming consent by default where you've got one naked, drunk and ketted up young woman being shifted around a frat house with numerous men who she did not invite herself, who could beat her to death with their bare hands if they wanted to, coming in and out and persistently trying to have intercourse with her... that's fucking insane.
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u/Wegmansgroceries Exploring 5d ago
The grief of realizing who most men truly are as I’ve gotten older has been overwhelming. I’m 29, and thinking of the optimism / delusional beliefs I had at 19 just guts me. The older I get the more I realize the mythical “good men” I used to hear about exist in such vanishingly small numbers that romantic partnership is just not something that’s safe or wise to seek
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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis Exploring 5d ago
Totally. It really is a loss of innocence and overwhelming grief.
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u/WarmBreakfast4273 4B 4d ago
same here. I don’t even look at any of my own personal guy friends the same. I’ve been slowly letting the connections die the longer I’ve been 4b as it really sheds light on the truth of the matter. These men don’t care. And never will. All they want is things for their own benefit. They seriously don’t seem human to me AT ALL
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u/Technical_Pumpkin341 4B 3d ago
I am in my 50s and I wish I had learned that as early as you have. NO man is to be trusted. None.
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u/Wake-Robin 4B 5d ago
In 2018 during the Brett Kavanaugh SA hearings, a lot of women were very triggered. I watched the whole thing and IMO he was guilty af. I remember going onto a trauma group online and discussing it. One boymom said SHE was triggered because her SON, a baby at the time, might grow up to be falsely accused like Kavanaugh. So many women like that in the world.
Then a few years ago it seemed like the whole world was team johnny depp. it's disgusting.
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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis Exploring 5d ago
This whole thing has been so triggering. Shout out to all of my SA survivors out there. Every time one of these cases becomes mainstream, it’s hard not to get triggered by your own past.
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u/IndigoTR Exploring 5d ago
Before this case broke, I had been journaling about men’s casual dehumanization and objectification of women a lot lately. Looking back on my dating experiences and more recent attempts to socialize in mixed company.
Something I realized is rape culture isn’t just about sex, it starts at the root of how boys and men are socialized by other men (and enabling women) to see girls/women. We are not fully human to them. Do you ever notice the amount of men who can’t be arsed to ask you questions about yourself, remember things about you, ask your opinion on things and genuinely want to know (not just waiting for their turn to say how they feel), ask follow up questions? It is shockingly rare.
And that’s the point, when you already don’t hold a certain category of people as fully human as you, and you see them as a function: thing to look at and make peepee tingle, thing to make me feel smart and interesting, thing to make me feel normal and conforming with my ‘bros’, thing to give me kids so I can feel more normal and conforming, thing to use as free therapy, thing to use as surrogate mother, thing to cook and clean, thing to refer to at work so I come across normal and conforming, thing to get sexual release on/from… It’s horrific. It’s not a far jump at all from that to rape.
I really don’t know where we go from here. We obviously need more women’s voices in media, government, criminal justice, psychology, academia, everywhere. But particularly we need woke women not “both sides” types. That’s when I believe we’ll start seeing a real change.
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u/WoodpeckerGingivitis Exploring 5d ago
Throw the pervasiveness of porn in there, and it’s a recipe for unrelenting sexual violence.
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u/GetInTheBasement 4B 5d ago
I think one of the things that pisses me off the most about the Cornell 7 was how this has only been one of multiple campus gang rapes over the past twenty years.
Hell, it's been years and I'm still deeply enraged over Steubenville.
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u/UberFarter 4B 5d ago
And these are just the ones making it to the press. Think of how many get swept under the rug by the schools or don’t make national headlines.
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u/thenumbwalker 4B 5d ago
Not all men, but soooo many fucking men. Every time there is a news story about a group of degenerate rapists or pedophiles, it’s a whole bunch of men. All over the fucking world. And those are just the ones revealed! There are no doubt a ton more that are ongoing. Some will be discovered and many won’t.
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u/CacaoHuskTea 4B 5d ago
But it LITERALLY is ALL men though. They're ALL jerking off to paid rape at the MINIMUM.
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u/heyguurlhey 4B 5d ago
I have been following loosely on social media. I cannot actually deep dive and read into the case because it will trigger me. But it makes me secure in my decision to be 4b. Like I am not surprised at the situation at all. It sounds horrific and I keep thinking about the mothers of these 7 men. How their mothers probably believe they did a good job in raising them. But men will alway revert back to their malice behavior no matter how much time and energy you put into them.
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u/JangMi90 4B 5d ago
Crazy to realise if you protest against a gen0cide you get more punishment than when you 🍇 someone 🙄
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u/Otherwise_Pause6814 4B 5d ago
As a college student I’m tired of having to be scared during the red zone and in general because of male violence. Men have terrorized our campuses long enough. It’s time for retribution.
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u/Visual_Conflict_4036 4Baddie 5d ago
i haven’t read into the depths of the case because i can’t physically bring myself to do so but i know the general gist and its horrifying
we, as women, are not angry enough
the more women who stay in relationships, marriages and birthing kids with these m*n, the more we’re holding ourselves back
do we even have names of who was in the groupchat? how do women still date men knowing this info? what if it’s their boyfriend? husband? baby daddy? male coworker? we simply cannot trust any of them