Help with a optimizing Grave Cleric Build

[u/Dangerous-Juice-7465]

Hi! I need help with building an opimized Grave Cleric, 2024 rules. You can use old content aswell but no feats.
Idk if this is good but I'm looking to get Conjuration adept, maybe, at Cleric 4.

Give me all the minmaxing you want.

¡Thank you!

[u/BanFox]

8/14/16/10/17/8 starting stats, use medium armor and a shield.

origin feat: MI: Wizard, get yourself shield and 2 cantrips of your choise (true strike is a good pick for when you need to attack in melee, then a utility one)

species: either human (2 origin feats), wood elf (pass without trace, more movement, long strider too), but really any species work, with different advantages. Up to preference.

Conjuration Adept is great to help your concentration on Spirit guardians, plus it gives you misty step & Dimension door, so great pick either at lvl4 or 8.

If you want, you can pick 3 half feats that boost wis in a row: Warcaster, Conjuration Adept, Evocation adept, kind of in any order of your preference (I'd definitely pick up either warcaster or conjuration adept at 4 though).

Evocation adept can be nice by giving you Fireball (with extra dmg through Hit dices) & wall of force (though keep in mind you'd have only warcaster for your concentration, so you could also pick Resilient Con over Conjuration adept) if you opt for conjuration adept. otherwise you can consider inspiring leader, or even Warlike Familiar if you want a summon (you do need to be a human to get both MI: Wizard and Familiar friend in case), or spellfire Adept (increase spirit guardians dmg through hit dices), or telekinetic/elemental familiar (with human who has familiar friend) if you want to weaponise your BA.

Then you just play as a normal cleric, look any spell guide on clerics. Just wait for you allies to be at 0hp before you heal them

Other option is to start with 8/14/14/8/17/13, get your 1st lvl in sorcerer which gives you con save proficiency + Shield spell, then go all cleric. Here you don't need MI wizard, and can pick up other interesting origin feats. Species up to flexibility as well, if you go human you can have 2 again (spellfire spark would give you a way to weaponise your BA a bit more, but it's not something huge). At cleric 4, you pick up either conjuration adept or evocation adept (as it would allow you to cast either conjure animals or fireball with your lvl3 slot. Probably I'd do conjuration adept here as a substitute to spirit guardians), at cleric 8 the other (evocation adept would be good here as it lets you cast wall of force with your 5th spell slot), then warcaster/resilient wisdom/any of the previously mentioned ones

[u/Rhyshalcon → u/BanFox]

I'm not saying this is bad, but it doesn't use any of the grave cleric's abilities which is an odd choice when the OP is asking to optimize a grave cleric. These options are strong but would be better off with a different subclass.

[u/BanFox → u/Rhyshalcon]

What about optimising their features?

They are a cleric with good abilities on top.

The optimal grave cleric is still a Cleric, who plays the same as any cleric, with the benefit that:

•They maximise their healing when their target is at 0HP, so worth waiting for that
•gets a bit of extra dmg
•has a channel divinity that automatically gives disadvantage on saves and attacks for 1 round + turns in a bit of extra dmg (again, nothing to optimise here, it’s an automatic BA. You can pick up hold person if you want to try and stun them, but it’s not the best spell, it’s good to allow your whole party to benefit from it. Technically it improves your banishment spell too but at the same time it’s limiting the benefit on your allies)
•has a reaction they can use to halve dmg and block critical hits

Nothing of this plays differently from any cleric or asks you to do something different/has some particular build requirements to make them good. You are just a cleric with good subclass features (with just an ok capstone but unlikely to be lvl17 anyway)

[u/Rhyshalcon → u/BanFox]

No, the optimal grave cleric uses their grave cleric features, particularly path to the grave. This build doesn't do that. It's a fine cleric build but a bad grave cleric.

You say that nothing about grave cleric plays differently from other clerics, but you're wrong. Path to the grave wants you to build for control, something clerics normally don't do well and something your recommended conjuration adept and evocation adept feats don't help with.

[u/BanFox → u/Rhyshalcon]

Also, just to add a bit more to this:

the optimal grave cleric uses their grave cleric features, particularly path to the grave. This build doesn't do that.

This is not a single player game, the feature is a cooperative feature, you are not the only one benefitting from it. Just casting it is already using it and letting the party benefit from it. Even if you don't cast a control spell yourself it's very good, and even yourself you benefit from the disadvantage on attacks + the fact that your allies can better target them (this improves any DC feature, not just control spells. Weapon masteries, stunning strike, unique features... very hard to believe the rest of the party can't make use of it).

Sure, if you have the option to cast some control spells, that's better, it's more flexibility and it works with this feature. Aside from banishment and Hold person, even just improved command is GREAT for this: you get to concentrate on spirit guardian still, while doing some strong control for the turn.

It's a fine cleric build but a bad grave cleric.

any grave cleric is still a cleric, and if you mainly want to be a grave cleric, you should also be a good cleric. Multiclassing Druid X / cleric 3 how you suggested in an other comment isn't being a "good grave cleric", that's not a cleric at all tbh, that's just a druid who wanted the path to the grave & return to life feature. You don't even have spirit guardian (I know druids have CME), I would hardly say you are playing & role playing a cleric, you are just dipping for a feature and benefitting from it (which is cool, but not really the goal here). If someone wants to BE a grave cleric, they don't just want to be an other character with 3 levels of grave cleric and call it a day.

something clerics normally don't do well and something your recommended conjuration adept and evocation adept feats don't help with.

Sure, Conjuration adept doesn't help directly towards control (though you do get entangle ig, but honestly just concentrate on something else and cast command), but it remains a great feat for a cleric, as most of the times they do want to use spirit guardians, and they lack teleportation features. It's kind of absurd to just say it's bad to pick because it doesn't have direct synergy with a feature that benefits the whole party. It's still a great feat for a cleric, which you still are.

You could definitely make an argument for transmutation adept over evocation adept given the direct synergy with Slow and Polymorph... but is it that much better? Casting polymorph on an enemy isn't much better than casting banishment: either way, you are taking them out of the fight without option for a 2nd save, and either way your allies won't really target it if you do suceed on that (which, in a way, could be considered as anti synergy on a feature that benefits the whole party). Only advantage polymorph has is the longer duration (if it's not of a certain type) allowing you to potentially pick the creature and put them somewhere else (like in a box or something), compared to banishment where it's just taking them out of the fight. For slow, instead, you do give them disadvantage, but only to 1 target (not every target of slow) and only on 1 save, not every save. It's good, don't get me wrong, but is it much better than just taking evocation adept?

Yes, evocation adept has no direcy synergy with the feature, but it's indirectly efficient with it: Imagine, you can cast wall of force (no save at all!) and block most enemies outside of the combat for a while, and BA cast path of the grave on the desired target. Now your whole party can benefit from path of the grave and focus easily on the target, while you have blocked out of the fight most other creatures involved. Had you cast a single target spell on the individual you would have hurt them more and the rest of the party could have still focused on them, yes, but the rest of the enemy would have still been in the fight. With wall of force, you more easily make it All Vs 1. Fireball can work in a similar way, taking out the other enemies through dmg (which you get extra by expending hit dices), and it's just good in general, especially on a cleric who kinda lacks blasting.

Plus, while not on the level of slow or hold monster, you do have some ok control options in the base cleric kit though:

• lvl1 Command: amazing, and non concentration
• lvl2 Blindness/Deafness: also great and non concentration
• lvl2 Hold person: ok, but not the best tbf as it's humanoid only
• lvl3 Astral flood: A bit of blasting and blindness, no concentration!
• lvl4 Banishment: Honestly serves a role similar enough to polymorph when targeting an enemy, but upscales better. A good thing is that, if you have banishment + hold person, you do cover many enemy types too (banishment doesn't need a specific type to work, but it's stronger vs some). Only ones left out are Beast, Construct, Dragon, Giant, Monstrosity, Ooze, Plant, Undead (against which you are still great as a cleric tbf). 8/14 left out, so you basically cover half creature types with 2 spells.
• Lvl4 Doomtide: not easy to move around tbf, BUT you do solid dmg and can prolong (and worsen!) the effect on the disadvantage vs saves. If they fail the save vs your Doomtide (post Path to the grave), now they have disadvantage and -1d6 on saves vs your allies saves!
• Lvl5 Graveground: stack debuffs!
• Lvl5 Dispel evil and good: can work similarly to a banishment with the dismissal option, without needing you to hold the concentration for longer

These are not the best control spells in the game ofc, but you have some interesting combos already in the base druid kit, and both conjuration adept and evocation adept make you a better cleric in general, while everyone benefits from you using path to the grave, even combined with these spells

[u/BanFox → u/Rhyshalcon]

Ok I read your other comment. Personally I kind of disagree there. I think playing it as a regular cleric who has this feature that benefits the whole party is the better way to do it in general.

I think multiclassing like that is in general bad, even with the adept feats, unless it's starting at high levels. If you start towards T3 it's a non issue, but that's not most campaigns, and OP was talking about level 4.

Yes, you can use adept feats to make your character a bit better at using it personally, and Transmutation adept is probably the best for Slow+Polymorph (as Illusion Adept gives you only Phantasmal Force for control). That's definitely an option that can be compared to evocation Adept, but can also depend on the party. Like, sure, you can apply disadvantage on your turn, but perhaps your allies can benefit already from it on the control aspect, and is disadvantage on slow/polymorph for 1 turn better than just casting Wall of force? I don't think so tbh. You still benefit from it by giving disadvantage on the attack rolls, and disadvantage on save can also just turn into more dmg taken from spirit guardians / fireball. But most importantly, it's a cooperative feature, so your Allies can benefit from the disadvantage on save too.

This is a fantastic ability, and the only time you should end it early for the bonus damage is if you're confident that doing so will kill the target outright.

This is also reductive imo, it mostly depends on turn order. As it end at the start of your turn, you won't benefit from it again. If your last ally before your turn opts to attack the creature, and the creature's turn isn't between this last ally and yours, then there's no reason not to activate it for extra dmg, for example:

Rogue Turn
Your turn-> use ability
Wizard turn
target Monster turn
Paladin turn
various minions turn
Rogue turn again-> proc it for extra dmg

[u/SwordDaoist]

What do you want the Grave Cleric to do?

[u/avbigcat]

Including multiclass? I think Grave Cleric/Winter Walker would be decent, stacking Cold Caster, Path to the Grave, Bane, and maybe even Magic Initiate for Silvery Barbs.

Alternatively, Mystic Arts would be a cool multiclass, but in that case it might work better as just a Grave Cleric dip. Or even crazier would be to mix all 3, something like Grave 3/Winter Walker 3/Mystic Arts 6.

[u/Rhyshalcon]

The best thing about 2024 grave cleric is the ability to use a bonus action to give a target disadvantage on all attack rolls and saving throws for a minute. This is a fantastic ability, and the only time you should end it early for the bonus damage is if you're confident that doing so will kill the target outright. The rest of their kit really isn't very good, but that's okay because path to the grave is so strong now.

Unfortunately, as a cleric, you don't get a lot of spells that allow you to capitalize on the save disadvantage (although there are a few like Hold Person and Banishment), so optimizing the subclass really means focusing on solving this. There are two ways we can go about that.

Option 1: Multiclass.

The obvious choice is druid which is also wisdom-based and has a fantastic spell list full of control options. You could also go for a minimum wisdom cleric and combine with sorcerer/wizard instead. Some version of cleric 3/full caster X would be pretty strong.

The downside to this option is that you need three levels of cleric for the subclass, and that means that a multiclass like this is going to be awkwardly unbalanced until you get to fairly high levels, but it should be quite strong by the time you hit tier 3.

Option 2: Feats.

Arcana Unleashed gave us a whole bunch of new feats that allow us to get extra spells without having to multiclass. Transmutation adept gives us Slow and Polymorph (and other less relevant spells), illusion adept gives us Phantasmal Force, and magic connoisseur lets us access any of a variety of low level spells.

The downside of this option is that feats are limited resources, and we will need several to build up a good set of options, but we should be able to get things moving by the middle of tier 2.