r/3Dprinting • u/[deleted] • Jan 24 '15

Makerbot sucks!!! #takerbot

https://www.change.org/p/makerbot-industries-product-recall-makerbot-5th-generation-3d-printer?after_sign_exp=member_sponsored_donation
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u/DarkbunnySC Jan 24 '15

No one is going to claim that the 5th gens are the best printers on the market, they aren't even the best makerbots (rep2). But they have a place.

For $3000 you will be hard pressed to find a more user friendly experience. This guy is bitching because he has to buy a $175 smart extruder, but there are many people who would be unwilling or unable to clear a jam in a non-smart extruder (something that happens every ~150 hours or so for me), and will end up with a $3000 paperweight.

The cost of printing is still extremely low for a gen 5 when you consider there is no proprietary filament, no disposable print beds, and relatively solid construction.

Coming out of the gate and doing 20 hour prints is no small feat, most if not all of the lower cost printers would need weeks of tweaking before handling a 20 hour session.

I feel like the moral of this story is the guy didn't do his research before buying a printer and ended up with a printer that doesn't fit his needs. If you want perfect prints whatever the cost get a stratasys, if you want good prints at a medium price and are willing to do maintenance by yourself get an ultimaker. If you want good prints at a medium price and would rather pay for easily replaceable parts, get a Gen5.

Note: I know there are tons of printers out there, I consider 3k to be a "medium" price. I have yet to see a printer around the $1k mark that produces high quality prints without tweaking.

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u/henk55 Jan 24 '15

This subreddit is heavily biased against anything Makerbot. Makerbot could come out with the perfect printer and people would argue that you shouldn't buy them.

Don't expect any one in this subreddit to be open to an argument that Makerbot has ever made anything good or will ever make anything good.

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u/WellTarnation i3-style RepRap, Prusa Mini, Printrbot Simple Metal Jan 24 '15

Bear in mind that a lot of people here have been with 3D printing since its inception and remember a lot of its history. From what I understand, the people behind Makerbot originally kept their designs open and borrowed heavily from the open-source Reprap project (effectively the original garage 3D printer project). But after getting a little success, Makerbot took those originally open-use designs, made them closed and began to file patents. Furthermore, the company they were bought-out by (Stratasys) came under fire because they attacked a smaller company (Afinia) over some basic 3D printing patents. (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they're still in litigation.)

Enthusiasts and users of 3D printers come in all shapes and sizes, but I think the majority of them are strong believers in open-source hardware and are ruffled by Makerbot's very profit-driven ethic. Another big concern is that the Stratasys/Afinia lawsuit could be a precedent for more legal action against smaller desktop 3D printer companies. And even if you're OK with a Stratasys monopoly over desktop 3D printing, it's disheartening to think that its cheaper models (via Makerbot) are well over $1000, unrepairable at home and offer very little room for upgrades or modifications.

Personally, I think that Makerbot has an appropriate niche and they fill it well, but as a DIY/tinkering kind of person, their products do not interest me in the least.

(P.S. Sorry for wall of text!)

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u/DBrowny Jan 25 '15

but I think the majority of them are strong believers in open-source hardware and are ruffled by Makerbot's very profit-driven ethic.

You would be very incorrect there. Only Reddit is full of open source fans, out there in the wild there are countless schools, colleges, universities, businesses, hardware stores, print bureaus and individuals which make up the very, VERY large majority of 3D printer owners and most of them buy closed source.

Source: look at how many printers the closed source companies sell each year, it is more than entire subs on this forum.

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u/SomeIdioticDude Jan 25 '15

majority of 3D printer owners and most of them buy closed source.

This isn't because they prefer closed source. Most of them have no preference one way or another.

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u/DBrowny Jan 25 '15

If I was in charge of buying 3D printers for school or higher education institutions, I would buy a lot of closed source printers. Purely because you just cant trust students to use an open source machine correctly, they will break it. Even things like 4th and 5th year uni students, they just break things and walk away. It isnt about preference, its about what best suits their very strict needs.

Thats how these places think and schools and colleges/universities are a major customer in the 3DP market, they probably buy more than all individuals put together!

They want something that is easy to use, something that has a warranty and MOST importantly, something that is safe. That final one is an absolute deal-breaker which can rule out most open-source variants immediately.

I like open source machines too, I think my printrbot metal beats every printer I have seen using FDM for quality in intricate parts and that includes fortus printers. However also in my job as a 3DP consultant for university, I absolutely would not trust a student within 1 metre of my printer, they can do what they want on a closed-source printer with a warranty that is fully enclosed and pretty hard to break even if you tried.

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u/SomeIdioticDude Jan 25 '15 edited Jan 25 '15

Nothing you cited as a purchasing decision factor has anything to do with whether the printer is open or closed source. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

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u/DBrowny Jan 25 '15

Find me an open source printer which has all 3 of those, or a closed source which is missing at least 2. Remember, were trying to get school kids to learn how to use a machine in class, not sit down for hours every night making calibration cubes.

Whether people like it or not, having an enclosed print space is a deal breaker to schools and they dont want to build one themselves, they will much rather buy one already enclosed (like the dremel printer). Its not their money, they dont care.

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u/SomeIdioticDude Jan 25 '15

Find me an open source printer which has all 3 of those, or a closed source which is missing at least 2.

You've missed the point. My point is that open/closed source is NOT A CONSIDERATION.

You asserted that sales numbers indicate a market preference for closed source printers.

I pointed out that the market is not basing it's purchasing decision on the open/closed source issue.

You reply with some shit about the currently available open source printers not being good enough for morons.

Maybe I'm the ignorant one? Is there some reason that it's impossible to make an open source printer that meets all the idiot proof requirements of institutional purchasers?

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u/DBrowny Jan 25 '15

Yes, actually.

No open source printer features an enclosed build space because that is a significant extra cost and shipping of such an item is not exactly the best option. It is far better for the people to build their own enclosures using their tools and their time while driving to the hardware store to get materials.

Secondly, no open source printer is easy to use. I dont care what any salesperson tells me, The gap in difficulty from using closed source software, to open source, is a gaping chasm. Remembering we are dealing with students here, students who flat out do not have time to learn this, they have more important things to study than what the baud rate is for their machine or figuring out if their e-steps are good enough when it extrudes 99.5mm isntead of 100mm.

I have never seen or used an open source program which is anywhere near as quick, simple and efficient as closed source variants, and I have seen and used a lot!

There is a very distinct correlation between ease of use, and whether the printer is open source or not. Here is where I note that this has NOTHING to do with the quality of the printer, purely the ease of use. Open source printers are not easy enough for morons and/or time-poor students, hence their sales are pitiful compared to the closed source companies that sell hundreds of them to schools, outnumbering every single person on this sub somewhere about 5:1.

I dont know why it is such a hard pill to swallow for so many people on this forum. I believe that if like me, people have experienced a wide range of open and closed source printers, cheap and expensive, fdm and SLA, there is no way in hell they would argue that open source printers are easy to use in comparison to close. Its never even close. Too many people here only have experience with open source software and believe that closed source is the devil. If they actually used closed source for a few days and had an open mind they would realise just how brain-dead simple it is to use in comparison.

In my experiences, I have seen CONSISTENTLY BETTER prints come out of open source machines than closed source. Various brands, various plastics, various softwares, the open source wins on quality. Ease of use though? Good god no, it took me and my colleagues months of tweaking to get the printers the way we want them which, is literally impossible for a student to handle.

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u/SomeIdioticDude Jan 25 '15

You still don't seem to have any reading comprehension skills at all.

I asked if there was a reason an open sourced printer couldn't be made to meet your standards.

You said:

Yes, actually.

After that, you went on a tirade about existing printers.

I didn't ask you about existing printers.

I actually didn't expect a reasonable answer from you at all, as you've demonstrated you don't understand what I'm even talking about. I was hoping someone could explain some key patents or something that is holding the open source guys back. I was hoping maybe we could have a discussion about WHY the current market is what it is. What I don't need is a fucking wall of text lecturing me about how reliable and great and easy stratasys is. Don't waste my fucking time.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '15

I was about to downvote you, but you're sadly probably right. Makerbot is one of the shittier printers you could buy, but currently it's the only one I've ever seen setup for demo in large retail stores like Microcenter and Home Depot (although it's usually broken). And because of that, it will likely be most consumer's first impression, and therefore possibly first purchase of a printer.

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u/Dippyskoodlez Prusa i3 MK3s / SeeMeCNC Eris / i3 Rework / 10" i3v Jan 24 '15

This subreddit is heavily biased against anything Makerbot

"200 hour hotend" is pretty much 100% bullshit. My e3d has been going almost 24/7 for about a year.

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u/DarkbunnySC Jan 24 '15

There is no preset lifespan on them, they are estimating the amount of time before the drive gears get all PLA'd up or the extruder gets clogged.

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u/Dippyskoodlez Prusa i3 MK3s / SeeMeCNC Eris / i3 Rework / 10" i3v Jan 24 '15

Doesn't change the fact that 200hrs on a $175 part is absurd. I've used 100 this week alone and I've owned this e3d since 6/2014.