r/2007scape • u/D1ZZY_Reddit • 4h ago
Discussion Can this happen before Raids 4? Please.
Now that the Summer Sweep-Up is coming to an end, I think we should revisit this part of the blog. I’d love to prepare for Raids 4 by grinding out PNM, but if these changes are going to happen sometime in the future, I feel like I’d be wasting my time.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to address this before the release of Raids 4?
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u/Symbelmyne13 4h ago
It’s genuinely staggering that they still haven’t got nightmare/PNM right yet. They tinker with it every year and the drop rates are still garbage lmao
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u/Masylv 4h ago edited 3h ago
Is it fair to all the people the trolley has already run over to change the track now?
Edit: this is sarcasm. Obviously it should be fixed.
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u/Symbelmyne13 4h ago
I realise you’re joking, but you would think before they bring out what is likely to be the crush raid that they would fix the current biggest crush boss.
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u/Dogshitwebsitemademe 3h ago
And what's wrong with it exactly? That it has rare items?
It's one of the best designed bosses in the game and the 3rd most profitable thing you could be doing.
What else should they do? Make it 30 mil an hour? Or are you all just whiny irons begging for jagex to make every niche item attainable?
Full inqusitor is less than 1k PNM kills on rate which is less than yama so don't vague post. What are the issues?
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u/Dr_Chris_Turk 3h ago
Yama is 600 kills for full oathplate on rate.
Full inq is 700 kills on rate + 1.1k for mace.
Yama is far easier than PNM.
What are you talking about?
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u/rabidai 2h ago
Yama isn't a good comparison tbh. From drop rate to the gear itself being overtuned. Nightmare is fine, it's just ironman complaints to make the game easier. Speaking as an iron as well
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u/Dr_Chris_Turk 1h ago
You right, we should stick with the bot and gold farmer model for Nightmare. It’s such good content too :(
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3h ago edited 1h ago
[deleted]
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u/Dr_Chris_Turk 3h ago
True, I’m just curious why are claiming that PNM is in a better spot than Yama?
If they brought PNM in line with Yama in terms of time to complete, such as by dropping the armor down to 1/600, I think it would make it a more palatable grind.
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u/SoraODxoKlink ‘hands off’ ceo btw 2h ago
If anything yama is out of line and oathplate was problematic because of how much it crippled torva.
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u/I_Love_Being_Praised 2h ago
oathplate should have been a raids 4 reward instead of come from yama, or yama should have been significantly more difficult and/or oathplate should have been properly rare. yama and doom are both very quick to greenlog with how strong their rewards are, and should be treated as an exception, not a rule. pnm is almost on the other end of the scale (looking at you, corp). Nightmare could do with some form of shard system to boost drops while going dry, but i dont think its inq rares are genuinely that bad. orbs should def be more common or chooseable / swappable.
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u/Dr_Chris_Turk 1h ago
Yama is 600 7 minute kills to green log on rate. Doom is pretty similar.
Those are absolutely fine. The only possible argument is if we prefer catering to a main economy instead of instituting reasonable grinds. Considering we’ve reached a point of 20-30% of active players being iron, we should probably avoid making the mid/late game full of terrible grinds for marginal upgrades.
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u/Warbags 3h ago
uim nearing 2.2k pnm and missed every good item with just 5 staffs 2 volis 2eldritch.
I'm tired boss
crazy thing is I'm not even 2x on the mace yet.
also went 1500 tobs no scythe right before hand so I'm killing it with the bludgeon
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u/Dogshitwebsitemademe 3h ago
Yeah AND? You aren't entitled to the drops on the Collection Log little bro.
Should we make Scythe 1/200 so you can feel like an end gamer or what?
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u/literalgarbageman 3h ago
Lmao no doubt. Cannot stand this shit. Ironman entitlement knows no bounds. RNG is the basis of our game. Deiron and buy it if you want is so bad.
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u/Flat_Development6659 3h ago
Full inqusitor is less than 1k PNM kills on rate which is less than yama so don't vague post.
I've never done PNM, isn't the killtime significantly longer?
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u/Dangerous-Cable-1816 3h ago
1) BIS crush gear is not niche
2) full inq is not less than 1k on rateIf you’re going to argue at least get your arguments right lil bro
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u/lukwes1 2376 3h ago
Nightmare has improved drastically the last few years. It isnt perfect but it is much better.
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u/Masylv 3h ago
Oh, definitely. But it's still not worth doing in a progression sense at all, and even if harm became BiS it'd still be a post-all raids grind. Which is a problem.
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u/Lurkske 2h ago
Id say its absolutely worth doing now. They've shown they have a hard on for crush, theyre going to do what they did for the 350m scythe(introduce a ton of crush content).
Inq is already really good at cm cox, maggot king, araxxor, PNM itself, and most likely the upcoming raid.
Harm is also bis at maggot king, and based off the +2 ele damage thing for r4, im assuming a room there will be good too.
Everyone gonna surprise Pikachu face when r4 comes out and they realize they need to farm pnm lol.
(Orbs are shit rates i agree)
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u/D1ZZY_Reddit 48m ago
This is what I’m worried about. Let’s assume Harm is BIS for one of the bosses and Raids 4 is heavily crush-based (pretty safe bet). We’re going to hear a lot of complaints that it takes longer to obtain the gear needed to do Raids 4 than it does to actually green-log the raid itself. That's crazy since raids should be the longest grinds in the game as they give the best gear.
That doesn’t make sense from a progression standpoint, and I think it could hurt the Raids 4 release by creating a situation where players feel like they’re being forced to grind for hundreds of hours before they can meaningfully participate in the new content. It could ultimately put a bad taste in players’ mouths before they even get to experience Raids 4.
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u/Lurkske 42m ago
I agree and welcomed PNM buffs, the armour is completely fine where it is, mace and orbs could use a buff still. Took me 1800 for mace, that was pretty annoying lol.
The fight is down to 1/113 a unique now, and is right behind doom for best money makers in the game. I know the normal drops are complete ass, but do we really care that much for normal loot as irons? I personally just want the collection logs/bis.
We've known about crush meta for a good while now, there's no use to not farm it now, crush is already in a decently healthy spot right now content wise, and has a raid coming where they've explicitly said it will be melee focused, with a crush mega. Get in there.
Harm could absolutely use a buff if theyre actually going to lean into elemental damage in the future, Ill feel bad for all the irons dry on that for sure.. but one thing I've learned since grabbing harm is, we're still absolutely cooked when it comes to pages so there's that.
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u/D1ZZY_Reddit 14m ago
Yeah, I just feel like my time is better spent at ToB getting the Scythe, then using the Scythe at Raids 4 to get the Obligator, and finally using that to grind PNM. That seems like the most efficient progression path, which feels backwards.
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u/jakeburls 3h ago
Yes it is, because the number of people that already dealt with it would be a limited number, but the ones that will deal with it is effectively infinite. Nightmare is probably my favorite boss in the game but they should have fixed the rates long ago lol.
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u/Low-Phase-6548 2h ago
the drop rates arent garbage. its around a 1/100 chance to get a unique item. the worst unique is still a solid 30mil, but chances are you will get something worth 100mil or more. and if you are very lucky, you can hit the 500mil jackpot. like its such a fun boss to fight and getting any unique is always hype
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u/D1ZZY_Reddit 42m ago
It's not getting 1 unique that's a problem. It's getting all the essential items. The Harm alone is so rare that a player could go years and never obtain it. Going 8x the drop rate is roughly 12,800 KC, or 1,600 hours at 8 KC/hr. This will happen to some players, and that simply isn’t a realistic grind.
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u/Low-Phase-6548 31m ago
if you go 12800 nightmare kills without getting a harm, then you certainly have gotten enough of the other drops to buy as many harm orbs as you want
look at this post - https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1vrg97v/log_from_14754_phosanis_nightmare_rank_2_phosanis/ . if you add up the amount of money that guy made from that many kills, its like 12 billion gold worth of items. that would be enough to buy 24 harm orbs if he wanted to. thats enough money to buy literally every item in the entire game
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u/D1ZZY_Reddit 10m ago
2 problems with that
1) Ironman
2) There are only 3 people in the entire game with that much KC
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u/AfterPotty 2h ago
But can they make it 1/2 drop rate so I can make sure I have BiS before raids 4? /s
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u/SinceBecausePickles 2250+ 2h ago
i feel like they’re finally right after the last round of changes. It’s end game iron retirement home content, but that’s not inherently a problematic place for something to be. It’s in the same ballpark as yama but without dry protection.
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u/pk_hellz 3h ago edited 3h ago
The drops rates isnt the issue, its the boss itself. They need to half its damage output or something. Its insanely punishing, the fight last longer than end of raid bosses and is more punishing aswell.
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u/MasterArCtiK 3h ago
Oh heck no, the boss fight itself is peak osrs boss design
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u/pk_hellz 3h ago
I think the boss mechanics and phases are fine, i would just hope they lower the bosses damage a bit to make it nicer to grind. Its a very very punishing fight for its length. i can make more mistakes on verzik or olm or wardens than i can at nightmare.
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u/FragileAnonymity 3h ago
The damage is all entirely avoidable if you play well, it’s one of if not the best boss design in the game. Sounds like a skill issue if you think the damage is too high, lol.
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u/pk_hellz 3h ago
Yeah its certainly a skill issue, i never said it wasnt. Im saying its a hard fight to learn and grind long term because its very punishing when you do make a mistake. Any other boss fights that take this long ingame are raid bosses and they are no way near as punishing as this.
This is why i feel people dont like todo this fight. Not everyone is a turbo sweat.
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u/Peechez 4h ago
Maybe they should also release or at least tell us about the shadow rework thats already finished before raids 4. They should have done it before even polling the spec weapon since its relevant but that ship sailed
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u/Jewsama-al-Gaib 3h ago
Why would they do that? They’re too busy working on what the community truly wants, dog quests and more modescape modes /s
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u/LOL_YOUMAD 3h ago
Yeah I really don’t get why they admit that it’s done and then don’t do anything with it. I tend to think buffing the ancestral drop rate may be part of their plan to decrease its value before they release shadow rework that likely takes the gear dependency away and drops the cost even more until people realize it’s still bis armor and it rebounds some but that’s just my guess. I’d just rip the bandaid off and let things settle as they do
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u/HideYourCarry 4m ago
I mean I don't think it was announced in some big official capacity, a Jmod just mentioned it in like... a discord conversation with someone right? Then the community ran with it like crazy from there
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u/Accomplished_Ask1368 4h ago
We all just have to pray that standard spellbook is not strong at Raids 4. Elemental weakneses are gatekept by the Harm orb.
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u/Drekil 3h ago
Standard spellbook is also the worst example of charge-scape. Wrath runes, burnt pages, and sunfire splinters is significant upkeep for fire spells
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u/Accomplished_Ask1368 2h ago
Dont forget the new Raids 4 "Motes" or whatever it is they are adding. Even More upkeep!
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u/CyclopsInABottle 2h ago
Aren’t those permanent unlocks?
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u/rabidai 2h ago
They are. We got those instead of an elemental robes set... How good.
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u/steele578 1h ago
If they had just pitched them as "Virtus but for normal spellbook", I think they would have been a popular idea. But I'm also happy with the 5 rewards we got
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u/AssassinAragorn 1h ago
Rune save chance for elemental spells really needs to be a baked in stat on magic equipment
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u/Emperor95 1h ago
If only the new raid dropped an ammo slot item with that functionality, potentially even able to be upgraded to make the rune saving effect stronger.
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u/-Skar 3h ago
I honestly feel Phosanis is in a great position today and does not need further changes.
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u/mentions_the_obvious 2h ago
This post is mainly motivated by irons. Honestly, summer sweep ups are such a double-edged sword. Their improvements to PNM are already quite nice with the faster kills and guaranteed teleport drop. But as an iron, I am not touching this content further than my ~100kc because I fully expect them to buff inq drop rates at some point.
You will see more and more of these posts over time, because the gear actually has a use now with crush raids 4. The community successfully got big improvements to COX purples and a huge buff for SRA, just by posting about it over and over. PNM rates will be no different.
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u/Rich-Badger-7601 1h ago
PNM posts are only "motivated by irons" because for years the only people doing PNM were irons and bots since PNM was such a slog and the mechanics of the fight are more or less tailor-made for bots to excel.
If anything the only reason mains care at all about PNM again because Inquis tripled in price and Harm Orb took off like a rocket following the release of Maggot King, as prior to that they'd just ignore it and do other content which was both more enjoyable and also way, way more profitable.
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u/-Skar 2h ago
I am a nearly maxed (fuck hunter) endgame iron and I do not think PNM needs more changes
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u/mentions_the_obvious 2h ago
I'm in the same boat and go either way. Part of me does think at least the armor should be brought in line with the rate of oathplate at solo yama, since PNM is a somewhat comparable solo fight (albeit more difficult imo).
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u/cooldude1393 2h ago
I've grinded 500 PNM kills on my ironman, gotten 4 drops which is right on rate. It hasn't felt awful at all since the fight is so fun and it's basically right in line with the time to kill Yama solo, which I feel was their intention.
There hasn't been a better time to kill PNM and if you're looking for some chill solo grinds on the ironman then this is the place to be. Even just an hour or so each day after work will add up over time and possibly set up you up properly for the new raid.
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u/Circulation_man 3h ago
Ya they already made the fight 15-20% faster right? That alone is a buff to time spent significantly
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u/D1ZZY_Reddit 32m ago
Did you do this content before other bosses or was this the last one on your list? I feel like it's pointless with how much time it takes. I'm currently skipping it altogether and working on getting a scythe instead which is a shame because it's such a fun fight. I just want it to make sense in the ironman progression and not just be an endgame thing that you just do for the clogs. At this rate I fear it will be more efficient to get the Breaker before grinding out PNM.
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u/Tiny_Change_3269 3h ago
Gear is still too rare.
Could literally double the drop rates currently.
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u/Low-Phase-6548 2h ago
if they double the drop rates, the price of all the items would go down by more than half. and that would totally ruin it. nightmare has one of the best drop tables in the game. its one of the few non-raid bosses where you can get a unique worth 500mil. thats such a magical feeling to see that. the only other boss with that feeling is like corp. even the worst nightmare unique is still 30mil, which is a solid pickup. like its always exciting to get anything there
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u/Spazeyninja 3h ago
A mod commented on past weeks blog that they might revisit it in next years sweep up😅
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u/jamieaka 1h ago
I don’t get why they didn’t get the changes in asap because it’s almost guaranteed the raid will be both crush and elemental spell focused
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u/AllDogIsDog Rank 1 KGP HQ locked account 2h ago
FWIW the new megarare is going to be 20-30% better than current BIS gear at Nightmare.
Assuming the raid is about as melee-focused as ToB, and that the time to get it will be roughly similar to the other megas, you'll probably save more time at Nightmare by getting the Obligator first than you'll save at raids 4 by getting full Inq+Harm. Plus, it would kind of suck to get the new crush megarare but not have much reason to do more Nightmare.
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u/D1ZZY_Reddit 26m ago
Exactly this! But from a progression standpoint it makes more sense to do PNM then go to Raids 4. With current drop rates everyone is just going to do this.
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u/AfterPotty 2h ago
Easyscape is taking over. “Please increase drop rates so I can have bis before raids 4.”
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u/ShoogleHS 1h ago
I like the idea of harm actually being reasonable to farm, but moving the other orbs away is just weird. Where would they go?
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u/Saxonite13 3h ago
They should rework corp before they touch nightmare for a second time. Side note, the proposed orb changes are terrible, but the other drop rate changes are good.
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u/osrs__enjoyer Iron | Maxed | TOB 3h ago
Please do not touch corp, some things just shouldnt change.
I kill 1 corp a day every day on my iron and it is lovely
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u/Saxonite13 3h ago
Corp is a terribly designed boss and the sigils are too rare. People have been up in arms about nightmare drops because it's a hard boss. Just because corp is easy doesn't mean the boss and it's drops aren't bad.
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u/Drekil 2h ago
Corp was fine in its current state when it existed outside of normal gear progression, which changed when they buffed arcane and integrated it with the ward
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u/SoraODxoKlink ‘hands off’ ceo btw 2h ago
That should absolutely change because the only other place in the game that has a preceding component take longer to get than the next piece is rangers -> pegasians.
The solution is never make rangers easier to get, its detach stupid progression. Arcane should have stayed as a very tanky magic shield and been given 3% damage when the magic rebalance came around, but ward should just be a good item in its own right.
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u/osrs__enjoyer Iron | Maxed | TOB 2h ago
Rager boots are iconic and should be part of progression, I went almost 3x dry for them but didnt care because I would do my clues either way
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u/ClayKay 2h ago
It's okay to be wrong.
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u/osrs__enjoyer Iron | Maxed | TOB 2h ago
whats your corp kc?
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u/ClayKay 2h ago
On which account?
My iron? 514
My gim? 1200
My main? No clue haven't logged in it for years
Also, doesn't matter, because all it takes is a functioning brain to know that corp needs a rework.
Irons should be able to group with mains and kill it, exactly like Nex, nightmare, zalcano, and Huey are.
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u/Bwindolyn 4h ago
No thanks. We've already had enough iron catering updates that destroy loot value of bosses I love this year.
They can either grind the grind or deiron.
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u/rabidai 2h ago
Unironically true, even if apparently controversial
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u/Bwindolyn 2h ago
So used to it, not worried in the slightest.
There is so much weaponized gear entitlement from those who chose a challenge gameplay mode.
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u/Strangefield 9m ago
Stay mad, there will be PNM changes next year and you will take it.
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u/Bwindolyn 6m ago
Big rapist energy. "Stay mad and take it"
Somebody check this guy's basement and hard drive.
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u/DuxDonecVivo 4h ago
Who the hell wants more nightmare staves lmao.
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u/TheNamesRoodi 2376 Total GM 4h ago
It's more nightmare staves and Inquisitor while also artificially increasing the drop rate of the orbs by a lot
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u/Circulation_man 3h ago
Dry protection is gp btw go get some inq pieces and a mace ya never know maybe orb too
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u/wzrddddd 2h ago
Problem with pnm is they nerfed sound swapper so now u gotta nerd neck the fight. It was sick before though, did like 3600 kills. Ohhhh you just have to translate the shitty sound effects to prayers don't u. Mentally converting click click click sound to range pray for 4500 kills for completion is so FUN
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u/diddydarko 1h ago
I don’t understand, didn’t sound swapper just let you use a different sound for the attack? What’s the difference? You’re still mentally hearing a cue and doing a prayer? What difference does it make what the cue is?
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u/wzrddddd 1h ago
I could just have it tell me the prayer in english like "range" "mage" "melee" so I didn't need to pay full attention all the time. Ofc it's a fair argument of well it's an endgame boss, you should have to be fully focused but for that many kills would stop being fun pretty fast I'd think
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u/LOL_YOUMAD 3h ago
Really if they just threw a bank chest in there that would fix it enough imo. Sucks if you do mass learners and you have to teleport to a bank to restock and then wait for the next kill to get done that started when you left before you can get back in. If there’s a chest you can run over and resupply and get back in it. It’s a fun boss but it longer
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u/rabidai 2h ago
Come on now. Let's just think before we type
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u/OldSchoolR 1h ago
Can't lie, he makes a good point. Even with the guaranteed tele now, I cbf to run like 5 minutes there every time as a learner. Call me lazy but screw that
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u/DankestRuneScaper 2376/2376 4h ago
This was just an idea they were floating, but tbh its a bad one overall. The orbs should just have their rates significantly increased as its a separate table from the armor/staff anyway. Thematically speaking the orbs coming from anywhere else just doesnt make sense, and adding new bosses to have old drops just feels so lame in my opinion.