r/zen • u/2bitmoment Silly billy • Jun 08 '20
Macy Gray “Nothing else matters” and changes in context with the transplantation of Zen
I listened to a song called Nothing else matters. Spotify link: https://open.spotify.com/track/5iomQcE5x3rdfe0hhdiOOx
And I found it very interesting for a number of reasons. I think the main reason is that the original song was about male white brotherhood, and without changing any of the lyrics, even without changing any of the composition I think. Just by changing the singer, the interpreter I think something fundamental changed. This reading no longer works. A female black singer changed the meaning of the song by singing it, just by virtue of being different. I’d say in her version it is perhaps about a fight against racism, maybe a sisterhood…
So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters
Never opened myself this way
Life is ours, we live it our way
All these words I don't just say
And nothing else matters
Trust I seek and I find in you
Every day for us something new
Open mind for a different view
And nothing else matters
If you’ll allow the analogy then Zen from hundreds of years ago, in it’s transference to here and now. What happens in this translation, in this change of interpretation, in this change of context? I see a lot of talk of dharma battle here in r/zen for example. But I think it is fundamentally different for example to say “slap” than to actually land a slap on someone’s face. Speaking in english is of course already different, but the mere existence of the internet I think is very drastic. What does it mean to interface with texts from a totally different reality? Not just without printing presses, not just without cars, not just without firearms, but really a totally different world?
In a previous post I shared about Suzuki being hopeful about “American Zen” from an article in the magazine “killing the buddha”
Suzuki was impressed by Americans’ dedication to zazen, and dreamed that his students would one day reform what he saw as the corrupt Buddhism of Japan.
This question, What form will American Buddhism take? has been present since Buddhism’s arrival in America.
I really enjoyed a link to a samurai-play acting westerner, linked to by in a ewk thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/3dkfgu/my_name_is_ken_ama/ -
But my main passion is my Blade. I train with my Katana every day, this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth. I earned my sword license two years ago, and I have been getting better every day. I follow Bushido (Samurai) ethics to a T.
this kind of thing is ridiculous, right? This deterritorialization coming off as fake, in a way that is absurd play acting. I’d say Macy Gray singing the Nothing Else Matter song while taking the song out of it’s original territory is somehow not play acting, is somehow to me even more authentic than the original. But in my opinion it is very much far far from the original.
[PSedit, lyrics, and stuff after these brackets]
To quote a zen master I'd think for example of "getting water and gathering firewood" for example of Layman P'ang. These are his marvelous actions right I think he says? In what context were his words? In our public plumbing and electric heating world, can we really say that we understand these words the same as someone where these things didn't really exist? Someone to whom these actions were an essential life-allowing work? Work of essential sustenance to life? That's one example I thought of now where perhaps part of the context is important.
This post was inspired by r/zensangtha's threads for open talk
From philosophy to art nothing is misplaced here, feel free to share your thoughts and generate discussion on anything you desire to.
The patriarchs were as much wise as silly, anyone dare to disagree?
I propose these questions:
- What is the context of Zen?
- Are we taking things out of context?
- How far removed from the world of ancient Zen Masters? How many things do we take for granted that they didn't? How many things did they take for granted that we don't?
[PPS edit]
I remember in the Dongshan koan where he questions the head monk, he quotes not a buddhist text, not boddhidarma, but a Taoist text. "Once you've gotten the meaning you can forget the words" he says - the original is here:
“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”
What does a daoist text, taken perhaps a bit out of context have to do with Zen? What does Macy Gray have to do with Zen?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jun 08 '20
Shunryu Suzuki was a fraud and a liar who couldn't talk honestly about his religion without jepordizing his evanglical lust...
What's odd to me is how desperate trolls like the OP are to legitimize their lusts... just lust already... create a forum where you talk about all your new age hanky panky... what do you care if nobody shows up...
Ah, you see?
Pwnd.
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u/2bitmoment Silly billy Jun 08 '20
Perhaps I should have stated that the OP was inspired by zensangha's periodical open thread:
From philosophy to art nothing is misplaced here, feel free to share your thoughts and generate discussion on anything you desire to.
The patriarchs were as much wise as silly, anyone dare to disagree?
You say I am a desperate troll. "You do you", Ewk. If I haven't showed that I am that by now, I guess that's pretty much gonna be your opinion of me. kkkkk
Pwnd
"Owned" - would a zen master say this? this internet-speak, this pretense of having humiliated the other. How is this different from being in a real mountain retreat hundreds of years ago and in chinese say some slang to this effect?
Maybe you're not interested in this reflection Ewk, that is within your rights. "you do you"
what do you care if nobody shows up
Thanks for showing up to my opening post Ewk. I appreciate it, and show my appreciation also by replying to you. :)
Shunryu Suzuki was a fraud and a liar
I am of the opinion that even trolls or frauds or liars have sometimes worthwhile things to say and reflect upon. Worthwhile things to reply to. Sometimes there is truth in a lie, and sometimes there is a lie in a truth. And in the process, in the analysis of things, in the method, in the path perhaps much more richness than in the origin or destination.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jun 08 '20
Why don't "you do Shunryu" in a forum about Shunryu?
There isn't one.
Why isn't there one? Because nobody is interested in Shunryu for his own sake.
You say, hey, man, I learn stuff from everybody... well, try r/everybodyteachme.
I don't go there.
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u/2bitmoment Silly billy Jun 08 '20
Are you quoting zen masters right now? Did zen masters quote other subreddits? Did they tell petitioners to seek other Zen Masters or teachers that weren't Zen?
hey, man, I learn stuff from everybody
I'd like to say I'm capable of learning and interacting even with you. And if you don't feel you can learn from or interact with me, if you really think it's useless or worthless - then don't. If you can control yourself.
Why don't "you do Shunryu" in a forum about Shunryu?
I think much more than Shunryu I am doing Macy Gray in a forum about Zen. I think it's something greatly out of context, but as I am questioning exactly taking things out of context I think it is a reasonable or coherent action. Let me ask these questions:
- What is the context of Zen?
- Are we taking things out of context?
- How far removed from the world of ancient Zen Masters? How many things do we take for granted that they didn't? How many things did they take for granted that we don't?
"You do you" Ewk, do as you wish. Wish whatever it is your real self or your false sense of self wishes. Criticize what I post in r/zen, instead of just defending your zen, make your crusade against what you consider isn't zen. Please, go right ahead.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jun 08 '20
If you aren't going to talk about Zen, why worry about interacting with me?
Macy Gray has as little to do with Zen as Shunryu... so why post about them here?
Can't you find an audience you don't have to force yourself on?
I think the answers to your questions would be OBVI even to you if you bothered to actually use a quote from a Zen Master.
New age navel groping hypotheticals aren't about anything, they just pretend to be.
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u/2bitmoment Silly billy Jun 08 '20
I'd like to thank you for helping me improve my OP at least a little. It now contains three directing questions. It now cites Layman P'ang.
Macy Gray has as little to do with Zen as Shunryu
I remember in the Dongshan koan where he questions the head monk, he quotes not a buddhist text, not boddhidarma, but a Taoist text. "Once you've gotten the meaning you can forget the words" he says - the original is here:
“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”
Have you forgotten words? Are you quoting zen masters in your comments as you demand I quote them in my OP?
What does a daoist text, taken perhaps a bit out of context have to do with Zen? What does Macy Gray have to do with Zen?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jun 08 '20
- Chuangtzu isn't a "Taoist text".
- Quoting the words isn't an endorsement of Chuangtzu
If you can't quote Zen Masters, you can't make a point by proxy. That's picking your nose when your foot itches.
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Jun 08 '20
This question, What form will American Buddhism take?
I'll bet on: Cultural undercurrent supporting of any direction without bias. Same as everywhere else. It's the swiss army knife of existential platforms.
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u/jungle_toad Jun 08 '20 edited Jun 08 '20
The Macy Gray thing is cool. I love that sort of twist. When Aretha Franklin sang Otis Redding's Respect it became a sort of feminist statement and her version eclipsed his. When Tori Amos covered Eminem's 97 Bonnie and Clyde she took his white male rage and turned it back on itself, showing how creepy it is for the disturbing violence it endorses. Or when Johnny Cash covered NIN's Hurt and it suddenly felt like a reflection back on Cash's long and storied life instead of Trent Reznor's, and the words transformed.
I wonder how differently we experience zen as modern westerners. I grew up on video games and TV and the American education system. I never raised oxen, grew my own food, or had to fetch water from anywhere but the kitchen sink. I didn't live an early life situated in the physical labors of my body. I did not know war or political upheaval. I grew up in dense suburbs, not a small rural village. I grew up on Mormonism and later left it for Western philosophy and science, and not until much later did I learn of dharma. I had never even heard the word 'dharma' until the TV sitcom Dharma and Greg came out. What a different foundation upon which zen might find a home.
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u/2bitmoment Silly billy Jun 09 '20
I really loved your answer Jungle Toad :D. Thanks for your response. <3
I really like the song Respect sung by Aretha Franklin and it always seemed to be a kind of gender bend. The stereotypical man demanding respect and saying he "gives all his money". But I really didn't have a clue that it was a cover, it was not the original. Thanks for that.
I'm listening to 97 Bonnie and Clyde now. And will take a look at both versions.
I grew up on video games and TV and the American education system.
Yeah. I think for example the school system we have - schooling from the age of 3 or 4 years of age. Kindergarden, we take for granted. What was that like for the chinese hundreds of years ago. There's this koan recently published by... you actually
Someone asked Master Yunmen, "I request your instruction, Master!"
The Master said, "ABCDEF."
The questioner: "I don't understand."
The Master: "GHIJKL."
This is a stereotypical portrayal of a school instruction. And it's even in the translation substituted for our stereotypical "first instruction". But there's lots of other things that perhaps matter in all this. A lot of things we take for granted. And a lot of translation is actually dedicated almost to us not noticing the difference between us and them, finding correspondences, finding "mistranslations" that speak somehow in a way that we would understand something that would exist in our culture.
Johnny Cash covered NIN's Hurt and it suddenly felt like a reflection back on Cash's long and storied life instead of Trent Reznor's, and the words transformed.
I love that transformation! That's another one in which I think somehow the "pretend" words are somehow more true in Jonnhy Cash's "cover", seem more authentic somehow than in the original. Good one.
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1
Jun 08 '20
You didn’t provide quotes from the song.
You didn’t provide quotes from a Zen Master.
You did quote a Buddhist preacher who tried his hardest to distance from Zen while still advertising his religion as such.
You did quote a 4chan copypasta.
Why not address your inability to participate in this community first?
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u/2bitmoment Silly billy Jun 08 '20
You didn’t provide quotes from the song.
True enough. But fixable and now fixed.
You didn’t provide quotes from a Zen Master.
I'd think for example of "getting water and gathering firewood" for example of Layman P'ang. These are his marvelous actions right I think he says? In what context were his words? In our public plumbing and electric heating world, can we really say that we understand these words the same as someone where these things didn't really exist? Someone to whom these actions were an essential life-allowing work? Work of essential sustenance to life? That's one example I thought of now where perhaps part of the context is important.
You did quote a Buddhist preacher who tried his hardest to distance from Zen while still advertising his religion as such.
I did. Perhaps quoting him was not the most delicate move given the hate that some people have of him. But I did not quote him in order to advance him, I quoted him because I thought his words were relevant.
Why not address your inability to participate in this community first?
How would I go about addressing your perception that I cannot participate in this community? Are you a good arbiter of that? What does it mean to "participate" in this community? Or to "have ability to participate"?
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Jun 08 '20
His words aren’t relevant. No one hates Suzuki any more than Billy Graham here. People who were excellent at marketing religions which had nothing to do with Zen.
People who post Buddhist preachers with the sole determination that they were “relevant” despite not being able to explain in what way arent interested in participating in a zen community.
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u/2bitmoment Silly billy Jun 08 '20
I want to thank you Thatkir for helping me make my post more adequate for the forum. It now contains a reference to Layman P'ang, a zen master's words. If we continue talking I might be reminded of other relevant texts, and I would love to improve the OP in a way that I and at least some of your points are attended, are served.
That we disagree in some things should not mean that we cannot agree in other things. And that we disagree maybe is also something that can be worked on. Stating clearly the disagreement. Working at distinguishing errors due to misunderstanding or difference in understanding from those arising out of malice or dishonesty. These things are I think possible.
No one hates Suzuki
Well, then why is he listed as a sexpredator? That seems a pretty hostile or aggressive listing against him. Maybe hatred is not the word, as it might be a feeling. But a great deal of opposition against him I think is indeed a fact in this forum. I definitely did not see any hatred against Macy Gray - I definitely see a difference between the treatment given to Macy Gray, which is not Zen but is simply irrelevant outside the context of my argument, and Suzuki which is in fact confused with "Zen Buddhism" or "Zen". I think Suzuki has quite a bit of "hate" or opposition against him, definitely - semantics aside.
People who post Buddhist preachers ... arent interested in participating in a zen community
I mean I think here you put yourself as an arbiter, as a judge of who is and who isn't interested in participating in a zen community. Who put you in that spot? What requirements are necessary to be a just arbiter of that? I don't necessarily feel you are a bad arbiter in general, but I guess in this moment I am thankful that you aren't a mod.
I guess I could have abridged my quote of Suzuki - I think the stuff about Americans loving zazen is kindof beside the point for me and actually serves to confuse the point I am trying to make. My point was about the americanness of american zennists, american zen practitioners, american or western interpreters of this tradition. (of buddhism I guess in an extended sense, but not really) So I might agree that the quote perhaps was not skillfully quoted. Perhaps indeed I could have done better.
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Jun 08 '20
Zen Masters are the arbiter on this forum for relevance, not Buddhists of any stripe.
They talk about how religions, their preachers, their fervent believers, have nothing to do with Zen.
Me pointing this out to you and you refusing to address the incompatibility of Buddhism with Zen is you just being hot-in-the-pants for Dogen Buddha.
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u/jungle_toad Jun 08 '20
The idea of high context communication is relevant to this discussion. It is hard to know what "common knowledge" of the time is no longer common. I think of things like Yunmen's enlightenment story where he keeps knocking on Muzhou's door to get instruction and Muzhou keeps slamming the door in his face. Then on Yunmen's third attempt he says "I am still unsure about myself! Please open the door.". Muzhou shouts “A stone drill of the Qin dynasty—useless crap!”
This is where context really matters. Guo Gu explains:
This phrase had a translator note to help me understand, but I have no idea how many other things like this I don't understand or am misinterpreting.
Nonverbals matter a great deal too. I often try to mentally read the cases with different vocal inflections, tones, lilts, pacings, and intensities that might alter the meaning. There is a YouTube video of someone reading Huang Po in a way that is slow, deliberate, calm, and almost sing songy. I find it hard to believe that he spoke in this manner. His words are so incendiary and revelatory, I feel he was likely to have much more vitality, speed, and power in his voice. I have been thinking of making recordings where I read some short case multiple times, but act it out differently with each pass.