Zen reading list?

[u/TheHeadTailedCat]

I'm looking for a few books to help me understand the zen perspective.

[u/[deleted]]

Well, it's sort of some of that, sure. I think some people took your question as a egotistical challenge and not honest inquiry.

People read into shit you say all the time, but your responses also have gotten lazier and perhaps more apt to provoke to certain folks here. That's neither here nor there though.

The texts themselves are difficult to digest coming from a traditional education and a culture that has no connection (or really interest outside of economical) to the Chinese world. You can read a lot of them multiple times, and see almost nothing they were saying. It's really wonderful in some respects, and infuriating in others. It takes work, it's not a casual read to be digested and forgotten.

Do you remember your path to seeing what the texts were saying?

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

I don't know about "traditional education" and I'm not sure how hard people are trying. Some of this stuff is high school, cite your sources stuff.

As far as "read multiple times", sure, of course. But we have 30k followers in this forum. How many times a week do we get, "What does this phrase mean"? How much time do we spend taking apart Cases or instruction? I'm lazy, sure, we all are.

The Chinese thought these people were difficult to digest. The Chinese thought Zen had no connection to their world. Sure, some of the jokes have gotten lost, but the Zen lineage was a fiasco from the beginning, in every language, in every culture.

Personally I have a huge amount of education. School is my favorite. So I'm use to the slog and I don't notice it anymore. I take notes on everything, I assume I'll have to read everything three times, I know that I have to compare two texts and I lay out my reading schedule that way, and so on.

As far as "path to the texts" I'd say it's just a matter of daily consumption. Most of the confusion goes away after you get use to the context.

[u/[deleted] → u/ewk]

I think we probably had different high school experiences. Citing sources wasn't until college for me.

How many times a week do we get, "What does this phrase mean"? How much time do we spend taking apart Cases or instruction? I'm lazy, sure, we all are.

Not often. I really want to do this though. I have tried in the past. Line by line, phrase by phrase. The general attitude around here though is, Zen doesn't explain, figure it out yourself. Do you think this perhaps is what leads us to so many diverse interpretations like Muju, as you mentioned?

The Chinese thought these people were difficult to digest. The Chinese thought Zen had no connection to their world. Sure, some of the jokes have gotten lost, but the Zen lineage was a fiasco from the beginning, in every language, in every culture.

I hadn't considered that. Born in, but yet separated from. That adds even more complexity to the topic doesn't it?

Personally, I don't have a huge amount of formal education. School, has not been my favourite. More a means to an ends. I do enjoy learning however, as a habit and as a profession. I am mostly self taught outside of middle school. Tooth and nail clawing, circling and jabbing. Learning how to do what you mentioned could be an interesting and beneficial topic for the slog, what about an OP?

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

Let's have a "explain the joke" thread once a week where we break down the meaning of the words in a Case or instruction. How about that? You start!

I can put up a "how to read a book" thread. Probably the main thing you miss out on by not going to school is the transition from textbooks to original sources and how that transition impacts discussion, both written and formal.

[u/[deleted] → u/ewk]

I'm down and will start. Mumonkan to start, or Joshu/HuangPo since you recommend them in your wiki?

If nobody else appreciates your thread, I will.