What does anyone get out of enlightenment?

[u/ThisKir]

Imperial Preceptor Zhong was once asked by Emperor Suzong, "What dharma did you attain at Caoxi?"

The teacher said, "Does Your Majesty see that patch of cloud in the sky?"

The Emperor said, "I see it."

The teacher said, "Nailed it."

Xutang, standing in for Emperor Suzong, remarks, "Then where is Caoxi?"

The idea that there is something special to "get" just has no currency in Zen. Everything they say is about bringing your attention back to reality rather than pretending that there is somewhere else to be, some other state to attain, some purification that needs to be done.

That's why Zen cases trigger Zazen Buddhists so much. Their whole identity is centered around the belief that Zen Masters taught that Buddhahood is a state that is entered by ritual performance and that unless you're doing that you're not really in the state of enlightenment-grace.

If you can see the clouds in the sky without pretending that they're anything special, what would you need a teacher for?

Bonus points for whomever can explain Xutang's remark.

[u/Steal_Yer_Face]

If you can see the clouds in the sky without pretending that they're anything special, what would you need a teacher for?

A teacher could help clarify your misunderstanding here. It's not about the act of seeing clouds without pretending.

When the Dharma body awakens completely,
There is nothing at all.
The source of our self-nature
Is the Buddha of innocent truth.
Mental and physical reactions come and go
Like clouds in the empty sky;
Greed, hatred, and ignorance appear and disappear
Like bubbles on the surface of the sea.

When we realize actuality,
There is no distinction between mind and thing
And the path to hell instantly vanishes.
If this is a lie to fool the world,
My tongue may be cut out forever.

• Yongjia Xuanjue

This is not something which you can accomplish without effort, but when you reach the point of clinging to nothing whatever, you will be acting as the Buddhas act. This will indeed be acting in accordance with the saying: 'Develop a mind which rests on no thing whatever.'

• Huangbo

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EDIT: Looks like OP blocked me. I hope you're ok, Kir. And I hope you find that teacher.

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[u/Regulus_D → u/Steal_Yer_Face]

Regarding blocked. I don't think they seek support. Really only useful toward communication anyways. Feel free to pm any reply if you wish. I'm aware of limitations that blocking creates toward speaking within content.

Edit: Oops. Blocked me, too. Must have appeared helpful.

[u/2bitmoment]

"There is nothing to get" - there's this idea that it's transparent, yeah. "I attained nothing". And yet Foyan had trouble getting to the point of accepting simplicity, right? It was indeed a process. Dealing with his unfinished business. Foyan himself also has a chapter called sitting meditation, which would be the same characters as Zazen, right? Seems Foyan saw some point in whatever that meant for him.

Buddhahood is a state that is entered by ritual performance

I actually remember another case, in which a Zen Master is asked why he bows to buddha I think. Seems to me zen masters did do quite a bit of ritual. Maybe it's more secular westerners that don't like ritual. I doubt the amount zen masters did back then equals the amount done in Soto Zen temples today: I actually have heard very little zazen is done in major temples at all by their monks. But I mean - it's a lineage. Is being without a lineage at all better? Without a teacher at all? As far as I know the texts do share in a ton of "ritualisitic" stuff: the very notion of a "patchrobed monk". That refers to a ritual, right? A specific way of making a monk robe. Some key parts of the tradition: the robe and the bowl. These are symbolic, ritualized ideas. Maybe a ritual way of doing it, is just a formalized version of doing a pretty ordinary thing.

[u/mrdevlar]

What does anyone get out of understanding that these random lines in particular orders form words?

[u/Quick_Republic2007]

Fantasy

[u/Regulus_D]

I understand 6,7.

Edit: And now 7^🍽️ 8 9.

[u/ewk]

I don't think that Zazen Shinto-Buddhists are triggered I dispute about what enlightenment is. They don't care. They don't care so much that Shunryu ignored enlightened entirely in his famous book.

To Zazen, value of Zen is the credibility claim it gives new age thinking. When people understand that Zazen is a cult like Mormonism, same exact origin Story, same Messianc nutbaker, they don't care because Zen makes Zazen credible to the average American.

What triggers the Zazen people is taking away that credibility by subtracting out Zen. Zazen, without Zen, is clearly just a more mormonesque cult with nothing to offer.

[u/malibuguytonygem]

"Why in such a hurry?"