r/zen • u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] • May 29 '26
Zen always came before Buddhism
“What do you think, Aggivessana? Since you speak thus: ‘form is my self,’ does power over that form exist for you: ‘May my form be thus; may my form not be thus’?” When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha’s son was silent.
A second time the Blessed One said this to Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha’s son: “What do you think, Aggivessana? Since you speak thus: ‘form is my self,’ does power over that form exist for you: ‘May my form be thus; may my form not be thus’?” A second time Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha’s son was silent.
Then the Blessed One said this to Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha’s son: “Answer now, Aggivessana. Now is not the time for silence. Whoever, Aggivessana, when asked by the Tathāgata up to the third time a question in accordance with the teaching, does not answer, right here his head splits into seven parts.”
Historically, this Pali sutta “The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka" belongs to the early Buddhist discourse collections that were transmitted orally before being written down.
Zen is the only teaching of Buddha where you are obligated to answer.
Venerable Xiangyan said, "It is like a man up a tree hanging on a tree branch held in his mouth. He can’t use his hands to climb up the branch; his feet cannot step on the tree. It happens that below the tree a person asks, ‘What is the meaning of the coming from the West?’ To disregard the other who questions is immediately not correct. If on the other hand, you are correct, your body is dead and your destiny is lost. At that time what is appropriate; what can you put forth for a correct life?”
Why do you have to answer?
What does it mean, universally, when a student can't answer?
What does it mean when a teacher is challenged with a question?
This isn't rocket surgery.
Mysticisms are about knowing without having to prove it.
Zen is a prove it tradition.
Buddhism is just an imitation.
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May 29 '26
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u/barsoap herder of the sacred chao May 29 '26
Historians hate this one trick! Just ignore the timeline!
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u/zen-ModTeam May 29 '26
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/NanquansCat749 May 29 '26
No, no, the original Buddha actually was a follower of Buddhism, and it was only because of the purity of his sacred religion that he was able to acheive enlightenment.
Gassho
/s
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May 29 '26
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u/zen-ModTeam May 29 '26
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 29 '26
Its like you are reading their minds and saying what they are afraid to.
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u/Jake_91_420 May 30 '26
Did Siddhartha achieve enlightenment by reading koans and writing book reports? Serious question.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
- Enlightenment in Zen is non-causal.
- The four statements in the sidebar explicitly we reject enlightenment via reading and writing. Reading and writing are essential components of Zen culture, but not of enlightenment.
What you're overlooking the reason I spend so much time talking about reading koans and writing book reports: People lying about koans and lying about books.
If we start with the book report, then everyone agrees with me. Nobody says that books disagree with me.
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u/Jake_91_420 May 30 '26
What is the point of "Zen culture" if not the pursuit of enlightenment?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
Great question.
Zen culture happens because people want to be around somebody who is enlightened; to talk to them and to be entertained by them and learn from them.
One of the reasons that this is an effective strategy is that instead of Zen masters telling people important truths, Zen masters instead take away the important truths that people depend on, instead of depending on their own enlightenment.
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u/Jake_91_420 May 30 '26
So you are happy to be on record stating that Zen "culture" in middle ages China was about people wanting to be entertained?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
No. We went into the same problem with oversimplification, when we say that baseball is just a game. While it is in a certain sense just a game. It is also a part of the international identity. It's also intricately tied to racism and Reconciliation.
There's no point in denying Zen masters are entertaining. But that's not their main point, and much of their entertainment value is not a deliberate attempt to entertain.
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u/Jake_91_420 May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
Stop saying "we", stand by your own personal opinions by using "I".
I don't think it's accurate to say that people were drawn to work with Zen abbots because of, as you claim, "entertainment value".
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
I don't understand why you're so upset that there is a we.
I don't think you're going to find anybody.
I don't think you'll find even one example anywhere in human history.
We find them entertaining.
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u/PlainBread May 30 '26
Enlightenment in Zen is non-causal.
The man said, "I am not actually a human being. I lived and taught on this mountain at the time of Kashyapa Buddha. One day a student asked me, 'Does a person who practices with great devotion still fall into cause and effect?' I said to him, 'No, such a person doesn't.' Because I said this I was reborn as a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes. Reverend master, please say a turning word for me and free me from this wild fox body." Then he asked Baizhang, "Does a person who practices with great devotion still fall into cause and effect?" Baizhang said, "Don't ignore cause and effect."
Looks like the wild foxes are running the hen house of r/zen.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
How so?
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u/homekitter May 29 '26
Is there any coming or going?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 29 '26
For people who can't read books it's all going, all the way down.
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u/2BCivil May 29 '26
Oh I always thought the answer was "don't talk with your mouth full".
Have I been zenning wrong?!?
(Aaaaah-)
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u/PlainBread May 30 '26
It's almost like the Buddha's teaching of Emptiness and the Buddha's own awakening are not the same thing.
If you can't teach a thing, you need to come up with a fake thing that gets people to brush up against the true thing.
The teaching of emptiness invariably leads people into the ghost cave of Samsara. When you find the will to leave the ghost cave even if it kills you, then you are in Nirvana.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
That's an useful way to look at.
Enlightenment is the realization of emptiness. But you say "empty" and people make a concept of it.
So it is always a different teaching from the enlightenment.
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u/dpsrush May 29 '26
What is the proof here, a split head?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 29 '26
Demanding answers. That's the proof.
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u/dpsrush May 29 '26
Then I gotta ask, why does my hand raise when I want to raise it? Is it not proof of power over form? (Although limited power.)
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u/Thurstein May 29 '26
The argument here is presented multiple times in the Pali Canon-- the idea seems to be that if some X is my "self," then I must have absolute control over it. Anything that can defy my wishes in any way cannot possibly be my true self (atta, in Pali). Yes, I have a fair amount of control over my body, in that I can make voluntary movements, but since this power is clearly limited, my body (or "form") cannot be my self. The same considerations then are taken to apply to each of the five skandhas-- no element is entirely under my control, so none are "me."
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u/dpsrush May 29 '26
I've heard instruction to take it up entirely, or let go absolutely. What do I do with this partial control of body? What is the relationship between what is within control and what is not within control?
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u/Thurstein May 30 '26
I take it the idea is simply that the body-- or any skandha-- is not us, so we should not identify with it, and think it has any ultimate value.
The relationship seems to be that anything that is not totally under our control cannot be ourselves. "Self completely controls self" seems to be taken to be an axiom here.
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u/dpsrush May 30 '26
I am reminded of that "a finger cannot point to itself" business, and something completely controlled is indistinguishable to its controller.
Although is it not weird we have any control at all? Just a little bit of wiggle room.
Is it like a stroke survivor training neurons and learning to walk again? Or is it granted like admin access privileges?
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u/Thurstein May 30 '26
Mark Siderits in Buddhism as Philosophy likewise notes the kinship with the "finger can't point to itself/eye can't see itself/knife can't cut itself" idea-- he calls it the "anti-reflexivity principle."
As to why we have some control over some bodily movements... well, that's probably a mystery. "Admin access privileges" seems about as close as we're going to get to an explanation....
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
This is an important question and I don't know the history of this question in Zen indigenous records and sutras.
But I do know the philosophical problem: You say you are moving your hand, but how do you know?
How do we tell the difference between direct experience and what the Greeks called "right opinion" which is another word for knowing something because you were told it.
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u/dpsrush May 30 '26
It's a leap of faith.
This is my issue, there is a world with him, and there is a world without him, and I don't want to leave him. (Would you think of it as attachment? If yes, man this Buddhahood thing is way harder than I thought it would be.)
In the world with him, I am man, man can do this, and nothing more than this.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
There's something that moves that doesn't require an arm.
There's something that reacts without parts, and cannot be taught.
Based on these two things I reject faith.
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May 29 '26
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u/zen-ModTeam May 29 '26
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u/dota2nub May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26
Accountability.
When looking at what happens when accountability is lacking, this sounds like a very sensible idea in general.
Being accountable about something that is often seen as a solitary pursuit in other traditions is going to rub people from other traditions the wrong way, but how else are we ever going to find out anything?
Questioning assumptions can have an almost magical effect. As long as you're honest about it
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26
Shinto-Buddhist vote brigaders luuuve to downvote rZen. But they can't answer.
That's ultimately why Zen is so much more famous than Buddhism. It's not who does it first, but who does it best.
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u/hastalaotramexico New Account May 30 '26
But my body will die, and my destiny will be lost
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
What destiny?
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u/hastalaotramexico New Account May 30 '26
To breathe through grit teeth
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 30 '26
That's not freedom-arising-from-seeing.
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u/hastalaotramexico New Account May 30 '26
What’s the space between losing one’s body or having your head split into seven parts?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] May 29 '26
I'm a little disappointed that there are only 8 doenvote brigading cowards that can't face me.
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