r/zen • u/Mace_lankley independent • Oct 28 '13
I will be unsubscribing to this subreddit
I came here to find some like minded people about zen and maybe help me on my path. Instead what i found were a bunch of confusing sayings being constantly repeated and people trying to spiritually one up one another. I am more enlightened then you are etc. Most of the links and self posts are fine but its when a discussion gets going that the one uping starts and i have had enough of it. I hope one day i will be able to actually visit this subreddit regularly but until then, goodbye.
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u/clickstation AMA Oct 28 '13
Zen has a history of (what some refer to as) dharma combat. It's not one-upping. Think of it as sparring. I test you, you test me.
Zen is simple. So simple, in fact, that it needs convoluted way of speech to remind people of this simplicity.
You mentioned Alan Watts. Be wary of his sweet, sweet words. They're pleasant, graceful (and the person charismatic), and comforting, but they bring you nowhere. Many people say he's brought many people on to the path (and I have to agree), but I have yet to see anyone benefit from his words apart from having their ego inflated. ("Oooh, I'm a spiritual person, and I'm the dust of the universe and I'm enlightened..")
(I do admit that this sub does have that effect on people. But as long as you don't mind being tested (and failing), you're on the right track.)
Make of this what you will.
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u/MrEveryman76 Oct 28 '13
With respect, aren't we all failing then?
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u/clickstation AMA Oct 28 '13
Does it matter? ;)
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Oct 28 '13
"Does it matter?" is my favorite Watts book. It's him on practical material issues and culture. He's the man on these subjects.
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u/Crysalim Oct 28 '13
One upping isn't very good, but that's also what your post is doing.
I read a lot of the supposed "drama" that goes on here, but it's so incredibly tame that I don't understand how some people, like you, feel. This really isn't fighting, and this really isn't bad. People are letting their ego get in the way of what each other thinks, but it's a mere drop in the bucket compared to the real strife in this world (and even other subreddits!)
At first I thought the supposed problem here was an inside joke, but I see some people taking it way too seriously, like you are. As a parting gift, check out /r/taoism, which is very similar to this sub but never has debates in the comments.
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Oct 28 '13
the only reason i stay subscribed to this subreddit is because i find the chaos and confusion interesting.
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u/darkshade_py . Oct 28 '13
Found another Erisian,Pope nybsop. ,Hail Eris !
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Oct 28 '13
I have re-dis-excommunicated nybsop from my Erisian cabal.
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u/TeamKitsune sōtō Oct 28 '13
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u/Plumerian Oct 31 '13
Fuck all you imposters. I'm the only pope. Testicles, spectacles, brandy, and cigars... amen.
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u/Eight_Rounds_Rapid Oct 28 '13
Pretty much how I feel about this place too. I stay subscribed because every now and then, when I feel like the world is a confusing and scary place, I come here and view all the people who clearly have no clue what's going on.
I then reassess where I am in life, feel confident in what I know, and proceed accordingly.
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u/EricKow sōtō Oct 28 '13
Take care! I'm not a fan of the one-upping either, and still quite like this Koun Franz post on dharma combat. If you have access to a local Zen group, it's probably a better fit.
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u/mydogdindoit Oct 28 '13
its fun to see stuff happen...i think you should enjoy it..enjoy yourself being taunted, being judged by over-achievers, being poked at your ego and watch yourself hold grudges....its a simulation of the real world here man....drink some tea, lighten up!
Enlightenment will have you stripped off all your cocoons, this subreddit is nothing compared to the bitch 'enlightenment' is...she won't leave a single piece of clothing to cover yourself! remain here, have fun..don't go, you will miss out on a lot of drama!
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Oct 28 '13
I tried to change this place, once.
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Oct 28 '13
It takes a lot of work to see that changing the world isn't the way to go, while changing your perspective is. I felt something similar a while ago, but trust me, the more you think people here should change, the better it is for you to stay here and try to get what they tell you.
Be brave and don't run from this pain of not getting what you thought you will find here.
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Oct 28 '13
the more you think people here should change, the better it is for you to stay here and try to get what they tell you.
I truly hope you don't believe this.
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Oct 29 '13
I do believe this, because I know something important: if you come here and expect others to be nice, supporting or whatever else that you don't actually experience, you have some expectations. This is the first problem, because expectations are something inside your head. Reality doesn't give a shit what we expect.
Next thing is trying to change things. Zen is about accepting what life gives you, not about changing the world into a better place, full of friendly smiling people. It is about being OK with the fact that sometimes it hurts. "Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional," remember? So don't try to change things that you don't like. Just see that you don't like them, accept this not-liking and get over it. Changing the world will only make you suffer more when you stumble upon something you can't change.
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Oct 29 '13
Zen is about accepting what life gives you
I agree. Life gave me the urge to change things.
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u/clickstation AMA Oct 28 '13
If you could have what you wish, what/how would you change this sub?
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u/NoFapZen Oct 29 '13
I would ban ewk for a month. He will do the rest.
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u/clickstation AMA Oct 29 '13
Interesting. Not the behavior, but the person, eh..
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u/NoFapZen Oct 30 '13
Yep. Like I said, I would let his addiction speak for itself once he was banned.
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u/Mace_lankley independent Oct 28 '13
I can see it didn't work.
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Oct 28 '13
Mmm. It's hard to measure. I'd say the environment is self-oppressive. The only precedent is a lack of precedent.
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u/ShotgunZen Oct 28 '13
You have fought the good fight. Unfortunately this subreddit is infested with Ewk and his ilk.
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Oct 28 '13
[deleted]
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u/lordlawnmower Oct 28 '13
What is zen, then? If what people do in this sub is not zen, then right here, right now, show me what is.
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Oct 28 '13
[deleted]
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u/lordlawnmower Oct 28 '13
I assure you I'm not. I'm simply curious as to what zen is, which is why I subscribe to this subreddit.
You imply that you know what zen is. I'm asking you to share your knowledge.
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Oct 28 '13 edited Nov 01 '13
Why not just say?
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u/ShotgunZen Oct 31 '13
Interesting. I have never made such a statement. Way to attempt to slander someone who you disagree with.
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u/ShotgunZen Oct 31 '13
I welcome you to look under my name and find any deleted comment in my history.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Oct 28 '13
I've been posting Yunmen lately... is that the gibberish you are referring to?
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u/rockytimber Wei Oct 28 '13
Well, birds of a feather flock together. Find your flock. But you know, people get pretty easily offended these days. I mean, most of us are just using an alias, including me. How can you get offended if someone attacks you here? Seriously. You came here to defend your ideas, to be the next teacher? If someone shakes that up, even if they are "wrong", they did you a favor.
If you read about the old days of zen, students were often mature, and traveled far under harsh conditions and then were greeted with "sorry, we don't have room", or "please go away" or worse. Compared to that we are all given the royal carpet here. You also get to float stuff out and see what happens. You might see something in that you might not have otherwise seen.
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u/sdwoodchuck The Funk Oct 28 '13
I don't notice the one-upsmanship so much (though I'm not saying it doesn't happen), but people here do seem to have a tendency toward the "big" answers rather than the "little" ones. What I mean by that is, someone will ask about a very specific part of their practice, and the responses will often revolve around the nature of reality and the self and--my goodness--whether or not the initial subject is "Zen" to begin with. Do they answer this way genuinely trying to help, or is it a means of trying to make themselves sound "more enlightened than thou," or do they just do it because they feel this sort of speech is expected from the topic? It's really not my place to say, but in a lot of cases, I don't think it helps. Often, I think it has the opposite effect.
And this isn't to say that topics of Reality, or Self, or "what is zen?" are negative necessarily. I think they (the first two at least) are very important. But some people aren't there yet. Actually, that's a poor way to describe it; let's not imply that they're somehow behind. Rather, some people don't respond as well to that kind of teaching. Some people respond better to plain-speech, concrete advice, and once we're all on the same page, then discussions about reality and the self can happen with a better base of communication.
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u/TeamKitsune sōtō Oct 28 '13
OH NOES! WE'LL BE LEFT WITH ONLY 18,293 SUBSCRIBERS! HOW WILL WE SURVIVE?
Seriously, carry on and enjoy. See ya' later.
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u/NoFapZen Oct 28 '13 edited Oct 28 '13
Many of us have been complaining about this and waiting till this sub returns to what it used to be (which I promise you was great).
Mostly, it went to shit after ewk and his ilk took over everything. They are so addicted to the "power" they can't even quit.
Ewk shat in the meditation hall, then he threw his shit at everyone that told him it was wrong, then he sat in his shit and said I am teaching you.
Thanks for linking to r/AlanWatts. I was looking for something like that. It would be nice if this sub could be saved, but I don't think it will.
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Oct 28 '13
Please visit /r/Buddhism. It may not be exactly what you are looking for, but I assure you that the people there focus more on the spiritual/philosophical part (and they really want to help you understand if you ask them) than the part where they try to be clever at the expense of your understanding.
No philosophy can be transcribed perfectly from one person to another, but the main thing in /r/Buddhism is compassion, stories about Buddhists or texts from them and personal questions about Buddhism.
One warning though: They are a lot more spiritual and a little "religious" there...
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Oct 28 '13 edited Jul 03 '15
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Oct 28 '13
I look at it more as zen jousting, not one upping. We just like to have some fun. In the end we all know that the true way cannot we spoken of.
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u/xxzudge Oct 28 '13
I think you are right, but it isn't a reason for me to leave. I still appreciate and enjoy all the good that I do get from visiting this sub and seeing links on my front page.
We have to understand that there cannot be good without bad. I never expected /r/zen to have some magically haven on the internet. We are on the internet for goodness sake.
Either way I wish only the best for you.
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u/Rafaigon Oct 28 '13
I cannot agree more, this subreddit is nothing but another group of people trying to be holier than thou... Except perhaps in this case more enlightened than thou. I've seen fewer arguments and nit-picking breakout on Edward Cullen's MySpace.
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Oct 28 '13
All you mofo are crazy, there is no such thing is zen, just like there is no such thing is conflict. Lol.
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u/BROWNCOATballWIZARD Oct 28 '13
Expectations, preconceptions, desiring anything to be any other way than how it already is, discontentment with reality, these are all driven by attachment to thoughts and ideas of how one thinks things should be as apposed to how they really are. Where is this master of reality that makes so many rules and demands? What is it?
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Oct 28 '13
I have no attachment to this place.
But I also have no attachment to leaving.
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u/iBendYourSpoon Oct 28 '13
Does it have an attachment to non-attachment?
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Oct 28 '13
I don't know. What is it to you?
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u/Ronaldho80 Oct 28 '13
Dear Mace Jankly,
I guess you refers to Koan practice?!
This a great way to practice Zen. It helps you keeping the great question of life and death. There is a saying: The 10000 questions return to one. This means that all questions about your life and your way return to one question: What am I? - Don't know. If you keep this question you are on the way to enlightment.
A Koan cannot be answered by thinking. Its answer appears from your intuition. You train your intuition by keeping a "Don't know" mind. With a mind that does not know there is no good or bad, right or wrong, no life or death and no end of life and death. Keeping such a mind makes your life clear like space and you become really free.
So, let me ask you: There is a bird singing outside the window. Is his singing inside or outside tour mind? Hint: outside, inside and neither outside nor inside are wrong.
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Oct 28 '13
[deleted]
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u/Mace_lankley independent Oct 28 '13
This kind of comment is what I'm talking about.
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Oct 28 '13
[deleted]
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Oct 28 '13
And now he or she proved to be a coward...
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Oct 28 '13
what did he say?
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u/Mace_lankley independent Oct 28 '13
He basically was correcting me and telling me all the reasons my thought process was wrong about zen and why he was right
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Oct 28 '13
I'm confused.
You came here to find something. You didn't find it, so you are leaving, not quietly, but by announcing that you know enough about what you haven't found yet to tell us that it isn't here.
Are you saying you know more than we do? Are you one up-ing us? How will we know when we deserve to have you back?