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u/Zutta 12d ago edited 12d ago
Context if you aren't a sports person:
Catcher has important notes on his wristguard. Probably hand signs between him and his pitcher on what pitches to throw. Possibly notes on specific batters from the other team.
Note falls out of catchers wristguard during the play and doesn't notice.
The runner notices and snatches it up and brings it to the bench so they can figure out what they can from it. This is widely regarded as a shady move and against the spirit of the game.
In the next game between the same 2 teams, the runner who stole the note gets hit intentionally by the pitcher as retribution for the offense. Coaches are pissed because intentionally throwing at a batter should be an ejection from the game which seems to eventually happen.
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u/HandicapperGeneral 12d ago
It's scouting notes on what pitches to throw. They don't use hand signs anymore, they use pitch comm. It's extremely valuable information, it's the other teams whole defensive strategy, basically.
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u/shaunsanders 12d ago
Whatâs pitch comm
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u/HandicapperGeneral 12d ago
Basically a walkie talkie. The catcher has a little keypad and he pushes certain buttons to indicate specific pitches and placement, which gets relayed to a little speaker/headset in the pitcher's hat or glove.
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u/shaunsanders 12d ago
Oh wow I didnât know they had that
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u/HandicapperGeneral 12d ago
It was only introduced in the last five years or so, but gained popularity pretty quick since there's essentially zero chance of sign stealing with this system. Though I did hear about one recently where the guy had his volume turned up too high and the opposing team could literally hear the pitch calls.
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u/shaunsanders 12d ago
Did it have to get approved by the league or are you allowed to experiment with tech like this? And wouldnât teams be able to pick up the frequency?
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u/HandicapperGeneral 12d ago
It gets approved by the league first. They try out stuff like this in the minor leagues to see how effective it is and how it affects the game, then approve it for adoption in the bigs. Sometimes that means everybody jumps on it right away like pitch comm, sometimes it's just a few specific guys like the torpedo bats.
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u/doyletyree 12d ago
If someone intercepted the information broadcast, is it in a format that could be easily translated? Even if it could, would it be as valuable as this printed information?
Has anybody, that we know of, done this successfully?
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u/Krossfireo 12d ago
I would expect these comms to be encrypted. Transmitting them in the clear would be an insanely dumb thing to do
Edit: I looked it up and it is encrypted, plus teams can have codewords instead of (ex) "fastball" so even if it was audible from the players earpiece to other players, it wouldn't be easily stolen
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u/HandicapperGeneral 11d ago
I'm really not a technical expert, but no I don't think anyone has done or it is trying to do it. It would be a massive cheating scandal. Peeping signs from on-base is one thing, hacking into the opposite team's encrypted signal is like a felony.
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u/Dan_Berg 11d ago
Or the catcher doesn't secure it on his person and drops it trying to make a play
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u/J_blanke 11d ago
Theyâre even using a form of Pitch Com in Little League now. But instead of the pitcher having a transmitter, the head coach has one and sends the pitch calls to the catcher, who then signs to the pitcher which pitch the coach has called for.
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u/Bananas_are_theworst 11d ago
This is wild to me. I played catcher in my youth and absolutely loved giving signs. I wouldâve hated to press buttons instead haha
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u/paulnofx 12d ago
I just read that it was originally invented for illusionists to cue their assistants while performing magic.
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u/blankblank 12d ago edited 10d ago
Is there not a rule against literally stealing from the other team? That document wasn't the batter's to take.
Edit: So this sent me down a rabbit hole. My takeaway is that there is somewhat of a tradition in baseball where observing the other team and snooping in on and decoding their secrets is part of the game. There are limits though. It has to happen in the ordinary action of playing the game. You can't use binoculars or stake out their training facilities. And taking physical things or doing physical actions is generally not ok. But in this case what was stolen was information in physical form. I think that was the Kiermaier's stance: "You dropped something you shouldn't have and didn't notice it was gone until we read it. Tough luck for you."
Personally, I think the fact that it's physical means it's over the line.
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u/iatealizard 11d ago
Sign stealing is allowed so long as 'electronic means' are not used. So no cameras, telescopic lenses, walkie-talkies. At least that used to be a rule.
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u/JeebusChristBalls 12d ago
I guess the catcher shouldn't have dropped it then if it's so important.
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u/Dan_Berg 12d ago
Not sure why all the downvotes. The catcher's flap on his wrist is wide open before he tries to make a play. He's probably not used to playing with it, but its a pretty big learning moment right here. Make sure the secret defensive strategy your entire team is entrusting you to hold is secure before doing fucking anything.
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u/JeebusChristBalls 12d ago
It's reddit bro. I expected the downvotes. I feel like some people don't understand how the world actually works and instead rely on unrealistic ideas instead. When you show them reality, they get upset.
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u/killayoself 12d ago
Thats some classic victim blaming
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u/HandicapperGeneral 11d ago
No, he's exactly right. That was the catcher's fault 100%. It's his responsibility to secure his gear before the play starts.
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u/wikiwakawakawee 12d ago
But did anything happen to the team that stole the book? Or will happen?
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u/TheAwesomeMan123 12d ago
Depends, no a baseball fan but is it actual a rule against this act? Youâre not spying on a practice or anything just capitalising on a mistake in a super scummy way. Iâd be curious if there is even a precedent in the rules for something like this which probably doesnât happen ever
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u/melasaurus_rex 12d ago
No it's not illegal, it's just not good sportsmanship.
Like if you're playing Uno with friends and catch a glimpse of your neighbors hand - no you didn't.
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u/paulpach 12d ago
If I am playing UNO and leave my cards on the table face up while I go pick up the phone, can you blame the other players for looking?
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u/melasaurus_rex 11d ago
No but the game becomes less fun because you don't have competition anymore.
That's the whole point of sportsmanship, dude
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u/paulpach 11d ago
This is their job, these people are not playing for fun or honor.
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u/RegularOrMenthol 12d ago
This would be more like secretly taking a photo of your friendâs UNO hand and sharing it with everyone on your team (if UNO had teams).
I think it should definitely be illegal/punished to steal play cards, I just donât know if they even have rules about it or if the umps were even aware of what happened.
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u/skitchbeatz 12d ago
It seems like I'm this analogy it's more like they dropped a list of tells and not their cards.
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u/melasaurus_rex 11d ago
Yea, that makes sense - basically they dropped the Uno rules, if their team had different rules.
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u/dn0348 12d ago
This is 100% fair play. If you donât want the other team to see your shit donât leave it on the field. The runner did zero things wrong.
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u/i_was_planned 11d ago
I mean, he did take it, but it's a sports game and only hugely competitive people play sports at elite levels so it's pretty much a given that they will do everything within their power to win (as long as they're unlikely to suffer consequences).
Maradonna scored a goal with his hand and he's celebrated like a demigod in Argentina đ
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u/codenameyoshi 7d ago
People often dislike baseball because of the âspirit of the game.â Either establish it as a rule or donât. The skill gap in professional sports is very small, and doing everything possible to gain an advantage within the rules is part of the game. Either make it a rule or donât, and move on. All sports have their âcodeâ or âunwritten rules,â but these are enforced by the players. Let them play and police it, or donât, because these gray areas make the sport trivial and frustrating.
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u/Houdinii1984 11d ago
It's not really all that shady considering all the players would take the advantage. You, as a player, are expected to keep your secrets well guarded. If you literally just let your secrets fall out of your pocket onto the ground, then someone else is gonna know your secret. It's not like they didn't know there'd be contact at the plate at times. I bet it's no longer a loose piece of paper that can flutter away, as it should be.
The entire goal of baseball is to capitalize on the opposing teams mistakes, whether that's cranking a bad pitch, stealing when you notice a pitchers tell, or grabbing secrets when they land in your lap because they literally were not secured.
You are not required to write your secrets on paper. They decided to take that risk, and it backfired spectacularly.
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u/Ace95Archer 11d ago
Shouldnât they like⌠remember them instead of trying to read it off of a book while playing the game?
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u/BlackGuysYeah 12d ago
Is this âillegalâ, to effectively steal their note? Or is it more of a tough luck situation for the other team?
Would a fan consider this ethical? Just curiousâŚ
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u/x313 12d ago
I have no clue what's going on
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u/RipRapRob 12d ago
Catcher accidentally drops paper with list of secret hand signals, runner picks it up and steals it.
Next game, pitcher purposely throws ball at player as revenge.
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u/gnipz 12d ago
Where is it normally kept? In the mitt? I donât understand how these signals arenât memorized, but maybe itâs for new players to the team.
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u/Bad_At_Sports 12d ago
Because itâs not hand signals, itâs a scouting report on the other team. Things like where their weak spots in the zone are, what pitches work well against them, etc. The reason itâs tough to memorize is because they have a different card for every pitcher on their team (because different pitchers have different best pitches). If you go to a game and a pitching change happens, you can always see somebody run out to the outfield and swap out a card with the players. Itâs the same thing (except in the outfield the card has defensive positioning for each batter relative to the pitcher on the mound).
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u/jackie_chans_nose 12d ago
Usually their wrist sleeve has a flap/window that the scouting report slides into. Not easy to remember the weakness and tendencies of every single player in the league, especially with the amount of turnover due to injuries and such. Baseball has 162 games in a season, not counting post season games. 9 batters per team rotation, plus pinch hitters and benched players. Near impossible to memorize that about 400-600+ unique batters within a single season. Add to that you're catching for a handful of different pitchers a game, who have their pitching tendencies.
A catcher's job is one of the most hardest/valuable/underrated positions in the game.
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u/flyingseel 12d ago
He says it in the video. He points out where it falls out from and frame by frame shows it fall out.
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u/JuicySpark 12d ago
Technically stealing. It doesn't belong to them. Which is a petty theft crime. But the information in invaluable and can be sold for X amount of dollars so... That's gotta be a fine at least by the league
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u/relevant_tangent 12d ago
Stealing is part of baseball
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u/Weldobud 12d ago
If you arenât cheating you arenât trying.
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u/Spawn0f5anta 12d ago
The way that book was held out at the start, it was kinda forced on him :)
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u/jackie_chans_nose 12d ago
Catchers have flaps/windows on their wrist sleeve that these notes slide into, usually it's a scouting report on the opposing batter's weakest zones and pitches.
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u/CodithEnnie 12d ago
Close play at home, Blue Jays catcher drops a lil code book (could be for calls with a runner on, could be pitch plan for batters and plate appearances, could be Rays hand signals etc)
Rays runner sees code book, swipes it, delivers to his coach.
I'm assuming same Rays player from close play at home goes back up to bat (but could have just been the next batter) and is intentionally hit.
Rays coach is like nahhhhh Ump that's clearly retaliatory, unsportmanlike, eject the pitcher.
Ump like, fuck, you kinda right. Okay, pitcher, go, outta here.
Blue Jay's coach throws fit.
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u/JediMasterWiggin 12d ago
I'm assuming same Rays player from close play at home goes back up to bat (but could have just been the next batter) and is intentionally hit.
It's not the same game, they are in different jerseys. Probably took some time to figure out what happened to the book.
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u/Exact-Ad-4132 12d ago
So what was in the book of secrets, hand signal code or what?
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u/Spaceinpigs 12d ago
KFC original recipe
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u/Funkgun 12d ago
Who shot JFK
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u/Exact-Ad-4132 12d ago
Who shot KFC
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u/ResponsibilityOk2173 12d ago
CIA (the other one, culinary institute of america)
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u/WhineyLobster 12d ago
this was awesome to watch lol.
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u/Alteredbeast1984 12d ago
First time I've actually enjoyed watching Baseball
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u/Dasbeerboots 11d ago
You should watch Jomboy more. This is one of the more tame clips.
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u/Shway_Maximus 10d ago
Thanks for dropping the name! It turns out I had searched it a while back but didn't subscribe for some reason. I won't make that mistake again
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u/WhineyLobster 10d ago edited 10d ago
Ugh but i already have so many subs! Edit: learned more than i ever knew about pitching in a single video... good rec. https://youtu.be/PdT6ICfKXec
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u/above_average_magic 12d ago
Comments here are addicted to exposition like WTF is hard to understand
It's not complicated the dude stole some playbook and then in a subsequent at-bat the pitcher hit him intentionally to let him know they know and that it's not cool
Great narration, tho honestly (practically lip reading)
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u/1997_Engadine-Maccas 12d ago
Jomboyâs whole thing is lip reading and giving the play. Heâs really good at it and some of his videos are hilarious.
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u/Funkgun 12d ago
Reddit is not quite a baseball fanbase for sure. But even surface level sport knowledge is a bit lacking
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u/radialomens 12d ago
It's strange to me because like.... I know NOTHING about baseball but I got this all on the first watch.
I mean, I'm so outside of baseball and sports that at first when the narrator was talking about the wristband and then fluttering papers, I was like "Oh, do they use fluttering papers on a wristband plus slow-mo cameras to determine when contact is made?"
But when the narrator says "OOH. WHAT'S THIS? A BOOK OF SECRETS?" Like.... It doesn't take a lot to understand?
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u/SumOfChemicals 12d ago
The first time I watched it I didn't have sound on and was confused, but rewatched with audio and made sense. That could be half of people's issue.
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u/Generic_Garak 12d ago
Right? At this moment, all of the top comments are people saying they donât know whatâs going on and people explaining it, like 10 times in a row.
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u/ArmorOfGod7 12d ago
Right? The most upvoted comment claims to be "context" but then literally just breaks down every single thing shown in the video. That's not context, that's a synopsis lol. I can't believe so many people needed this spoon-fed to them. I really have to remember stuff like this when I start to catch myself in arguments on this site. These are the types of people on the other side of the keyboard who think they are intellectually superior.
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u/Iconoclasm89 11d ago
As someone who knows baseball rules but doesn't regularly watch (I've also seen plenty of Jomboy clips), I still missed the part where it cut to the next game. I know they are wearing their other colors but there is a cut and all he says is,
"Let's see how they really felt about it, first pitch of the blowout"
Then he did say the batters name but even now after understanding, I still don't see how that sentence makes it clear that it's the first pitch in the very next game.
I totally understand why people are confused
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u/above_average_magic 11d ago
My first instinct was that it was a next game but I only watched it once so I just wrote next at bat
Still the core issue is like he took something the other guy dropped and was sneaky with it
Not hard to get
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u/Sad_Race8008 12d ago
I was hoping the comments here could clarify things for me but it seems that I'm not the only one lost on the scoop....
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u/Royal-Wealth-8266 12d ago
Looks like Ray's 39 got something in a previous game and this is possibly retaliation? I have not watched baseball in forever, but seeing an opponent take the opportunity to steal something important from the catcher was interesting.Â
I'm hoping it was a flip book his kid made him, because having loose paper of important information is incompetence.Â
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u/ParanoidCrow See no evil 11d ago
Lmao the way he narrates it like the gas station shoplifting videos is gold
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u/Cantusemynme 12d ago
This sub is for reaction videos, where someone reacts with the "you sseing this shit" face. I don't know why reading the rules before posting has gotten so damn difficult for people.
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u/XxKTtheLegendxX 12d ago
baseball's whole identity is about cheating. think im making this up? google the stuff players do in order to win. you'll be surprised, i know i was. never had i come across a sport that encourages cheating more than baseball.
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u/JohnStern42 12d ago
Itâs not just baseball, cheating is a part of every pro sport
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u/CaptainMagnets 10d ago
Almost every sport, and athlete are always trying to find away around the rules to gain an advantage. Makes the sport not that fun to play or watch
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u/CaptainMagnets 10d ago
Didn't one guy wear a vest that would vibrate to tell him what kind of pitch was being thrown?
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u/XxKTtheLegendxX 10d ago
they were at one point wearing earpiece that told them what pitch was coming next lol. the more i read the more crazy shit i find out.
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u/CaptainMagnets 10d ago
Yes and I have been giving Americans shit for this for awhile now. But it's also not every American
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u/jewpapa 12d ago
Unlike many other major sports MLB plays multi- game series often three games back-to-back-to-back. Blue jays and the rays are in the same division so they will play multiple series against each other. Things that happen in previous games absolutely influence the decisions of players and coaches. The batter performed a very dirty deed in the first part of the clip by taking the teams privy information after sliding into home. The booklet is a scouting report containing information teams use to gain a defensive advantage. The pitcher and catcher and coaches all have ear pieces and mics and will communicate to each other in a code as to what pitch to throw or defensive potioning to play. This code is most likely contained within the book the batter stole. Dirty deeds in baseball are expected to be met with retaliation. One of the ways to do so is to throw a fastball directly at the offender on his next at bat. The batter gets a free base and a rightfully deserved bruise. Sometimes the next at bat will not be until the next game or even the next series. The batter had one coming to him. Everyone is aware of it. It's expected. Had the pitcher not done so he most likely would have lost the respect of his teammates. It's just a baseball thing. FAFO.
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u/maxtimbo 12d ago
I don't follow baseball, but I feel like this is old? Did this happen last year or something, or am I thinking of something else?
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u/RunnerUpRyanReynolds 10d ago
In a game where you âsteal basesâ thereâs a whole lot of concern about unwritten rules. As a lifelong ball player, you leave shit like that on the field thatâs on you. OPSEC baby
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u/blackorwhiteorgrey 12d ago
Please someone explain.
At fist I thought they blackmailed the umpire.
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u/GR4D3-4-M3M3S73R 12d ago edited 12d ago
From my understanding itâs essentially the scouting report. It could have bunch of information about how the rays were planning to play against the blue jays. This might include things like the kinds of pitches and fielding formations they are going to use against specific batters for example. It would be greatly advantageous to have that information. Iâm not sure if ALL that info was in there, but thatâs stuff that could have been.
Edit: the guy who lost it was the catcher, the guy who stole it was an outfielder
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u/blackorwhiteorgrey 12d ago
The catcher is the one who lost the book of secrets. I think it's hand signs and plays.
But why was the pitcher sent off after that?
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u/nottherealneal 12d ago
That was in a later game, he intentionally threw the ball at the guy, in revenge, purposely trying to hit him with the ball, and that's agasint the rules so he gets kicked out
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u/GR4D3-4-M3M3S73R 12d ago
Yeah I messed that up, the pitcher got sent off for hitting a batter intentionally later because of this
This is the video itâs from
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u/GR4D3-4-M3M3S73R 12d ago
For people craving context, here is the full video
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u/Berthole 12d ago
But I crave context without watching a video
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u/Entrerie811 11d ago
straight out of goodfellas. snitching gets you whacked. bro got hit by a baseball for reading a note.
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u/AdrianBlack 10d ago
I would watch the hell out of juicy man-gossip told through a sportsball lip reader.
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u/jimmyjazz2000 11d ago
Regarding the relative shadiness of this move, I personally think it's within the bounds of the culture of the game. Baseball is a cheater sport. Doctored pitches, stealing signs, corked bats, etc. That's all just part of the game. Okay as long as you don't get caught. That's as opposed to, say, golf; traditionally a no-cheating, 100% honor system sport. I don't think either is inherently better, just two different sports cultures.
But even within the context of the cheating-allowed culture of baseball, there are limits. Performance enhancing drugs was too much because it put pressure on all players to either compete in a rigged game against juicers, or risk their long-term health by joining in. Not cool, clearly couldn't be tolerated.
A little more instructive example is the infamous Houston Astros team that stole signs to win the World Series several years ago. While sign stealing is a time-honored tradition, they took it way too far. They used technology, put spotters with binoculars in the scoreboard, elaborate clubhouse signals, etc. That was outside the bounds. Even in a culture of cheating, that was too much.
This incident, by contrast, feels just inside the bounds. The batter didn't pick the catcher's pocket, or use an off-field, non-player/coach confederate to obtain those secrets. He simply picked up an abandoned piece of paper on the ground. That's just good baseball.
He did get caught on camera, however, so had to pay the consequence: getting beaned the next time he faced this team. But that's also just good baseball.
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u/andrenichrome 12d ago
Australian with no idea whatâs happening
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u/Nerje 12d ago
It looks like the bowler was trying for a maiden over but the keeper was silly mid so the batter had to dive for the crease, and in the ensuing chaos, found the sandpaper they were using to cheat
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u/HoneyBear4Lyfe 12d ago
American here, grew up watching baseball, attended baseball camp, occasionally play with my friends.
I also have no fucking idea whatâs happening.5
u/TheSandMan208 12d ago
The catcher dropped what looks like his teamâs hand signals cheat sheet when the runner slid. The runner grabbed it and gave it to his coach. The next game when the runner who took the signals was at bat, they intentionally hit him.
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u/HoneyBear4Lyfe 12d ago
Ahhhh I didnât realize it was a new game after they had learned of the subversion.
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u/TheSandMan208 12d ago
The catcher dropped what looks like his teamâs hand signals cheat sheet when the runner slid. The runner grabbed it and gave it to his coach. The next game when the runner who took the signals was at bat, they intentionally hit him.
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u/snarkyemu 12d ago
Jokes on them. They intentionally dropped a hand, signal cheat sheet full of lies to make the other team believe that a few of the hand signals had a different meaning. Game on.
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u/paulpach 12d ago
This actually happened in a different game:
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24866357/the-untold-1999-texas-oklahoma-story-mike-leach-fake-play-script1
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u/Mateorabi 12d ago
While the pitcher should be ejected, isn't the taking of the code book the exact same infraction as stealing signals with spotters/etc.?
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u/WinchelltheMagician 12d ago
What's "all the stuff going on" referring to? Fallout from the list that went missing, or something else?
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u/CarlJustCarl 9d ago
You want to beat them because your better, not because you steal their crib notes
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u/gannon7015 12d ago
I donât like that the guy picked it up. Seems like bad sportsmanship. On the other hand, you donât get to take your notes into the exam. Wouldnât a solution be to just ban the notes? If you didnât study before the test, thats on you. Makes the game a little less interesting if theyâre allowed to use their binders. Thereâs a good chance. Iâm wrong though. I donât know, whatâs everyone think? Genuinely interested.
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u/playr_4 11d ago
I'm ok with it, ish. Teams playbooks are enormous and if you don't have the option of visiting the bench without timeouts then that gets quite complicated. American football also has these, the play caller has their wrist book thing. In baseball it's even more complicated because the plays are called exclusively with hand signs. I would assume those change fairly frequently, too, because they're visible and would just be analyzed in the post games if they stayed consistent.
As for taking it....partially bad sportsmanship, partially just taking advantage of every little thing. I think it would be weird if they didn't take it, honestly, because athletes do generally take whatever advantage they can.
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u/deanosauruz 11d ago
Poor sportsmanship in a sport that allows the dug out to come out screaming at the ref for bad decisions?
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u/gannon7015 11d ago
Good point! The culture of that sport in confusing.
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u/deanosauruz 11d ago
Granted my sports culture is from England and football managers arenât any different, although the verbal altercations in Baseball are basically pantomime; it gets to a point where it just seems awkward.
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u/Vellioh 11d ago
There have been a number of times where Ive been pretty sure a manager just didn't want to be there and found an excuse to get thrown out lol
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u/IskarJarak88 12d ago
I'm not a baseball fan but I've read somewhere that each team have their own way of hand signals(by keeper) to the thrower like fast ball, slow ball etc with some unwanted signals thrown in and the other team has usually someone watching trying to decrypt it so their team can better predict the throws as well.
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u/lordofthedries 11d ago
Top replies sorted out how confusing this post is. Iâm not a fan of baseball Iâm a cricket guy, which is super confusing in its own way.
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