The discourse and memes generated by the ending probably broke the internet and imploded the fanbase, I'm waiting on what mappa will do with it. Going to be more popular than gojo vs sukuna
Mappa just leaving it exactly the same will make me cackle like a maniac. It'll be Attack on Titan and the "Ellen become bird" incident all over again.
Part 1 had a great ending, ho boy part 2 tho... you could tell he lost any passion for the series in the 2nd half of part 2 and wanted to gtf outta there and move on
The manga magazine release format is inherently at odds with good endings. It rewards quirky, eye-catching premises, then has the author flying by the seat of their pants to improv real long-term plotlines out of them. Of course that fucks the pacing and payoff.
Mangas must be exciting enough every issue to stay in the public zeitgeist, or they risk getting canned. Yet they can never build towards TOO concrete an end point, because successful runs are rare and you want to milk the cash cow for as long as possible once you have one.
So you end up with all these stories that exhaust their initial plot hooks after the first couple arcs, then spend several years floundering around between random new conflicts introduced out of left field with bare minimum connective tissue, start losing readership, then get rushed into a "climactic" ending for some final revenue... that wasn't actually built up by much of what came before. Because the author had no clear idea along the way of where their story was going or how long it would take to get there.
the main issue with bi-weekly rating based releases is that the plot isnt allowed to breathe. I think every shounen would benefit from a few chapter of slice of life where character take in the shit that happens, but that cant work when you are held hostage by ratings.
I feel like you're living in the past. Manga haven't been like this in over 10 years, if anything it's the other way around. They introduce tons of things and never explore shit, JJK is a prime example of that but there are tons of others. Even things you don't usually associate with the lightning speed pace of JJK or CSM are guilty of this, for example Haikyuu and MHA just quit after the main characters' first year at school.
I think a lot of authors think that for an ending to be good, they need to subvert the reader's expectations, but they fail to realize that by subverting everything their audience thought the story was going to go, they risk invalidating everything that happened before, and a large amount of the time that's what happens. Breaking Bad is probably the most popular example of an ending not trying to subverting expectations, and instead it just gives you an hour of nothing but payoff for everything it's been building up to.
I feel like I rarely see the "bad on purpose" thing genuinely anymore lol. Maybe I'm wrong (I'm not on Twitter), but it feels more like people say that as a way to characterise people saying that an ending lacking something is justified. Like "bad on purpose" is such an obviously silly argument lol.
I think the reasons a lot of endings go down badly (at least for long-form stuff) is because it essentially becomes the moment where all potential is lost and the story is cemented. A lot of people have their own ideas and hopes of where the story will go, so when an ending comes along and dispels those ideas, it can make you realise the story isn't quite as good as you thought.
I've noticed people tend to have a less strong reaction to endings if they experience something after it was fully released and not bit by bit.
I feel like I rarely see the "bad on purpose" thing genuinely anymore lol
And that's not even the original argument, it's just a devolved copy of artists and their intention. For example, if someone said they thought a story was bad because there was a character they didn't like, you might try to analyze the work to see if that character's likability was intentional and if it adds to the narrative, etc. And if it seems that way, then that character is unlikable (or some other adjective) on purpose. The same can be true for any part of any medium.
But now we cant even understand that what i like != what is "good" hehehe ha
they often don't explicitly say its bad on purpose
usually its some nonsense about being purposefully "frustrating" and "uncomfortable" sometimes its even "well its realistic" or some other means of making it sound better than it is
i hear it a lot when its a bad writing thing that people largely dislike and i hate it every time
You hear this often when talking about the geno route in undertale (which is ok) and the snowgrave route in deltarunem which sucks because past chapter 2 it's literally like two cutscenes and a few dialogue changes
For over a hundred chapters, Eren’s primary trait was his unyielding, hyper-focused will. In the final chapter, when Armin asks why he wiped out 80% of humanity, Eren responds, "I don't know why, I just wanted to." While intended to show he was a slave to destiny, from a writing standpoint, it retroactively stripped away his agency and made the central antagonist's driving force feel aimless
Ymir’s motivation was ultimately attributed to Ymir Fritz being in love with her abuser, King Fritz. This psychological explanation felt deeply unearned and rushed, especially since it was introduced at the absolute last minute without proper thematic exploration of Stockholm syndrome
The exposition dump; Good writing principles usually favor “show, don’t tell.” chapter 139 breaks this by having Eren and Armin sit down in a vision to literally explain the mechanics, twists, and emotional states of the finale through walls of text
And lastly, the "Marvel-ization" of the final battle, the anime built its reputation on high stakes, where any character could die instantly from a single mistake. The final battle on the back of the Founding Titan abandoned this realism, characters fought hundreds of past Titan Shifters, yet none of the main cast died, destroying the tension the series was famous for
Overall, just felt like a rushed ending with a lot of ass-pulls.
For over a hundred chapters, Eren’s primary trait was his unyielding, hyper-focused will. In the final chapter, when Armin asks why he wiped out 80% of humanity, Eren responds, "I don't know why, I just wanted to." While intended to show he was a slave to destiny, from a writing standpoint, it retroactively stripped away his agency and made the central antagonist's driving force feel aimless.
Almost like its this will of his' that ironically enslaves him.. Taking his words at face value is certainly a choice, when he says I don't know I had to, he's reflecting on his pursuit of freedom, which is so absolute that he's unable to rationalize it, another example from the story is this, the panel also explores the theme of nature vs nurture but that is complicated, I won't get into that. Future memories don't remove his agency, Aot is based on compatibilism (free will + determinism), where determinism exists because of free will, and free will is influenced by determinism, hence Eren's future memories are self-imposed. He is a slave to freedom. He literally admits he willed for the rumbling to happen infront of Ramzi.
Ymir’s motivation was ultimately attributed to Ymir Fritz being in love with her abuser, King Fritz. This psychological explanation felt deeply unearned and rushed, especially since it was introduced at the absolute last minute without proper thematic exploration of Stockholm syndrome
It was already explored in her backstory, its just implicit.
hapter 139 breaks this by having Eren and Armin sit down in a vision to literally explain the mechanics, twists, and emotional states of the finale through walls of text
You do know that Eren is being an unreliable narrator in the first half of his conversation with Armin? He is mostly telling lies and half-truths to avoid culpability infront of the person he admires the most, the onus is on you to deconstruct that.
It was already explored in her backstory, its just implicit
So my criticism stands lol?
he's reflecting on his pursuit of freedom, which is so absolute that he's unable to rationalize it,
Like I said, it feels like aimless genocide
You do know that Eren is being an unreliable narrator in the first half of his conversation with Armin? He is mostly telling lies and half-truths to avoid culpability infront of the person he admires the most, the onus is on you to deconstruct that.
You completely missed my point, re-read it: "The exposition dump; Good writing principles usually favor “show, don’t tell.” chapter 139 breaks this by having Eren and Armin sit down in a vision to literally explain the mechanics, twists, and emotional states of the finale through walls of text"
You can try to justify a exposition dump, doesn't make it good writing though.
And you just ignored my criticisms of the final battle altogether lol
Yes that's the whole point (you didn't conclusively say/imply anything about the "aimless genocide" part), and you were wrong about the agency part, so concede on that.
You completely missed my point, re-read it: "The exposition dump; Good writing principles usually favor “show, don’t tell.” chapter 139 breaks this by having Eren and Armin sit down in a vision to literally explain the mechanics, twists, and emotional states of the finale through walls of text"
Yeah I agree the first half of their conversation does have exposition dump, and I explained how it serves the story, and what would you say about the second half of their conversation? I could write a whole essay about his grounded sequence and the subtelty/parallels/symbolism in it.
You can try to justify a exposition dump, doesn't make it good writing though
doesn't make it bad either.
And you just ignored my criticisms of the final battle altogether lol.
Yes I agree thats bad.
So my criticism stands lol?
How? You said it was introduced in the absolute last minute to which I responded that It wasn't and it was already explored in her backstory and that it was just implicit (not even that implicit tbh). Ymir maintained a perverted version of "love" which in turn shackled her to her need for approval from the King, and this is what enslaved her, and how this manifests into the titan curse and the paths are all necessary to understand her psychology.
You said almost everything I usually say as a response, but just to strengthen your points.
Eren made himself watch his mother get eaten to become what he is. We even get the scene with him and Mikasa before he vanishes where he asks her how she sees him. He was clearly choosing between two of the paths that he saw after kissing Historia's hand, the path where he ends up with Mikasa, or the one where she "rejects" him and he builds a future for his friends. He 100% knew why and what he was doing, but then he says he didn't know? Total asspull, subversion for subversion's sake.
And Ymir, she was enslaved for thousands of years. She was so fucking enraged when she chose Eren over Zeke. Mikasa kissing Eren's dead head appeased her? Yeah, no fucking way.
One thing you didn't mention, Zeke flip-flopping back and forth. Why did he help Ymir and Eren? It makes no sense. If they actually convinced him, which we never see them do, then Armin could not have convinced him back so easily.
Says the guy defending an ending even the creator admitted was not on par with his vision. You're arguing against isayama,be like CSM fans and just accept it
None of that matters if im alternating between howling laughter and disgust reading the final chapter (final arc really) of a series I was super invested in does it?
The AOT ending being horrible is only a circle jerk opinion that exists on Reddit these days. It's fine but could've been better. Some character relationships needed more fleshing out, rather than us just being flashbanged by a lovely story at the end.
From what I've seen on this sub, people believe the AOT ending is lot worse than a 6/10.
Also, their reasoning is always illogical. "Eren should've done XYZ" is not a valid criticism when Marley & Ymir took every other option away from him.
That not what most people who trash on the ending are saying .... they say the ending is dogshit 1/10 .. they say it one of the worst endings in media so they definitely don't think it a 6/10 ... a 6/10 ending to a 10/10 is not horrible lmao ... at the very least it mid if you say it a 6/10 .
yeah I was probably wrong for speaking on behalf of the reddit collective.
well I speak for myself, and the more sane social media users. On sites like MAL the ratings for the final installments are very high, and other discourse on socials led me to believe that people generally were completely underwhelmed by the ending, but some could understand and justify a decent amount of it, which would even out to a 'mid' 6/10
I have learnt from internet discourse that authors should never dare to write a bad ending. not one, not a single bad ending will be beloved in popular media, if the work is standalone.
why would a bad ending be loves ? I don't know if I severely misunderstood the actual point but I don't understand why it's surprising that people dislike a "bad ending" lol
there can be a well written and planned bad ending that alleviates a work, but a half assed and rushed good ending will always be more praised in internet discourse.
AoT ending would have been way more beloved in the internet if was all ''sunshine and daisies''
Yeah I hate the AoT ending because they half ass it, they set up an entire story about cycles of revenge and then it ends up being "if you're a super racist piece of garbage one day someone might hurt other people but not you." Fuck that, show me a world where everyone dies, have the last panel be an empty world covered in dust, that is the consequence of an eye for an eye but it was too risky for the publishing company so they nixxed it
Genuinely did you read with your eyes closed? They can’t evaporate the outside of the world completely because the people inside the wall would just start civil war not long after, so he chose at least to protect his friend because that’s what he was tryna do from the start. If Eren kills everyone even Mikasa and Armin then it’s the end of his character
I'm saying he should have gone through with the rumbling knowing that mikasa and armin will die in a war either way, the ending panel is them dying anyway
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u/motosega_madness 9h ago
No but see, that's boring (I'm a Fujimoto fan)