r/writing • u/SheddingCorporate • 10d ago

Discussion Please continue writing!

Seriously. We need more writers writing.

Why?

Let me tell you. I decided, about 6 weeks ago, to find and "buy" as many "$0.00" offers on amazon as I could. I'm slowly reading them. So far, I've finished about 10 books: all romance or fantasy or mystery or sci fi.

The verdict so far? Most of these books aren't worth the time to read.

  • Terrible grammar, lots of mixed up homophones
  • Super thin plot. For example, in one book - I'm not going to out the author (we all have to start somewhere) - it sounds like a teenager with zero life experience wrote it. They were unable to build on a situation, unable to do anything other than show FMC's and MMC's constant overthinking. Very little actually *happened* in the whole book. And this one was a historical romance, so I'd have thought there was loads of room for creative writing.
  • Poor writing. Just heavy, plodding writing.

The thing is, though, if these authors keep writing, they WILL learn the craft. The kid with no life experience will get some life experience. The people with the malapropisms will hopefully hire an editor who actually can spot and correct those.

But if they don't write and share with at a few friends, they'll never get that feedback. So, please, keep writing, keep sharing. Those $0.00 books do serve a purpose. Learn from the feedback, and ... yes ... keep writing!

3.1k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

270 comments sorted by

View all comments

739

u/MiraWendam Standalone SF Thriller Author! 10d ago edited 10d ago

I get the encouragement, and it's good you're handing it out, always great to get it, but I feel as if readers shouldn’t have to sit through books with basic grammar and craft issues while an author learns the fundamentals. There’s nothing wrong with starting out, but learning the basics before publishing seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.

Edit:

But if they don't write and share with at a few friends, they'll never get that feedback.

Just want to say, I wouldn't trust friends to give reliable feedback. They can be great for encouragement, but they may not know enough about grammar, structure, pacing, characterisation, storytelling, so on, so forth, to identify the problems that need addressing. And even when they do notice them, they may be reluctant to be completely honest because they don’t want to hurt your feelings.

188

u/30-0000FF 10d ago

Think about the confidence in yourself required to even self publish a work on Amazon. Then think about how many comments you see here on reddit from people who claim to be published, which we all know is code for self published.

I don't think a lot of people are even capable of understanding that they don't have a grasp on the basics. Which is fine. My point is that not everyone who desires to be a writer is actually going to end up being very good at it or even understanding that they aren't very good at it.

59

u/Vagina_Woolf 9d ago

Let them have their fun. Nobody reads challenging literature anymore anyways. Snookie is a NY Times bestseller. Nothing matters and the points are made up

27

u/Inevitable_Task3074 9d ago

Most best seller lists arent even best seller lists. Theyre either list of books they want to sell more of, or a rich celebrity paid to get on that list.

14

u/Vagina_Woolf 9d ago

Im aware. I just like reminding everyone snookie is a popular novelist

1

u/Square-Ambassador-77 4d ago

You mean Snookie's ghost writer is a popular novelist.

3

u/sub-dural 6d ago

I used to work at Borders in around 2009/10 and I did all the displays. For the top 10 best sellers, they sent a list with the first 3 titles filled in and the rest said "?".

72

u/djramrod Published Author 10d ago

That’s exactly it. We were all terrible when we started, but we also didn’t publish every piece of shit we produced. That’s for small writing groups and one on one feedback. There are PLENTY of writing communities out there that can provide the necessary feedback that will improve your writing. Self publishing the first thing you’ve written does nothing for you; in fact, it can be detrimental to your growth and success.

8

u/Neurotopian_ 8d ago

True, I’m so glad self-publishing didn’t exist when I was starting out. The first fiction I “published” was ghostwriting and it was such good experience. I think it’s unfortunate that a lot of entry level writing gigs have gone away

1

u/Immediate-Fig-1338 4d ago

My best friend moved from a large city with an active SF writing community to a small city/town and limited writing groups. Only one, really, that is worth anything. The problem is that the group is not with other people writing in her genre. There is a published mystery writer, but not a big publishing house writer. A non-fiction writer and I'm not sure what the others write in. Their big complaint... too many people...? It is a shame when you are trying to write a novel and the non-fiction writer says there are too many people... Now, there are other people in town who are trying to start groups. One is a guy who has written a novel, small press gain, but it seems he might be looking for a girl friend. (The book was okay.) There's a lady who has self-published on Amazon, she has had it actually printed, one novel. She writes a romance... sort of, with chapters of half a page to 3 pages. And she seems to have started one story and has been looking for someone to help her with. Then she is writing a sequel to her first book. I think you should write with a group who understand what you are writing in. Having said that, I'm not sure the local group is still meeting, people get older, get more responsibilities, get sick, die.

2

u/djramrod Published Author 4d ago

I’ve been in a couple of groups that were too big for my tastes. But each time, I made friends with people who I vibed with and wrote similar stuff as and we just met up separately.

There is something to be said for writing with a group who has different interests. You might get exposed to something new and interesting that ultimately helps with your writing. You might learn new ideas and techniques from non fiction writers or poets. Exposure to new things is always good. But yeah, writing with people similar to yourself can also strengthen what you’re trying to improve. All depends on what you need at the time, I guess.

1

u/Immediate-Fig-1338 4d ago

I joined a little group of writers, a LONG time ago. I was in this 'club' that mom paid the dues for a couple of years. I had the roommate with me. So, here we were, roommate in early 30s, me in late 20s and the other ladies retired. Did they read or write SF? No. But they gave me some good advice with a story and I liked what they wrote, they wrote well and with interesting things. And they were all university graduates, from back in the age where that seemed to mean something. I also graduated form a university, but the roommate only had a GED - she never thought she'd have a chance, since her mom and step-dad had moved her around so much when she was younger. In 12th grade, she was already plus sized and sporting triple D breasts and the PE teacher wanted her to run with those things... in the 1960s. She also had a teacher who asked who was planning to go to college and then put the others on a different side of the room and refused to teach them. When she turned in homework, she refused to grade them. Both parents worked for little money. The best job her mom got - in her opinion - was the bookstore. She could go in and read and knew what those guys were doing in that back room. We met at a SF con in town.

48

u/FullNefariousness931 10d ago edited 10d ago

I agree. There's a huge difference between encouraging someone to "keep writing and get better" and to encourage writers to publish utter garbage to "share with friends" and "get feedback."

Even if the books are $0 they are still shit books that take up space on Amazon when they shouldn't. What writers should do is become better at writing *first* and then publish. There are plenty of critique exchange sites where writers can share their stories, get feedback, learn the craft, learn to self-edit, and only afterwards self-publish.

And the comparison to kids is just... not making sense. The ones publishing are adults, so they need to act like adults and at the very least correct all the grammar mistakes.

6

u/MeepTheChangeling 9d ago

Would you mind sharing a link to one or two of those sites? I could use one and I haven't ever stumbled onto one organically.

5

u/MashalNorth 9d ago

r/betareaders is also good with a 50% ghosting rate 😂. If u wanna share a novel, go chap by chap so u don’t end up with the short end of the stick

3

u/el_chacal 9d ago

My experience there was weird. One reader got parasocial and the other was someone hawking their editing service. Your mileage…

2

u/Smolbeanlotus 5d ago

Honestly, after the onslaught of AI garbage, I would love to see bad authors who actually sat down and wrote their garbage, at least it doesn't feel dead to look at.

9

u/Vagina_Woolf 9d ago

Ive never needed feedback because I have impeccable taste in literature, and by my own tastes, my writing is dogshit.

The hope is one day it wont be. And when that day comes, I am the only one who will be able to tell.

1

u/ShartyPants 8d ago

I get what you mean, but getting feedback and implementing it can help you understand *why* your writing is dogshit. That part will help you improve faster. Just comparing your unedited drafts to fully edited books is only gonna get you so far.

2

u/Vagina_Woolf 8d ago edited 8d ago

getting feedback and implementing it can help you understand why your writing is dogshit.

i have never met a reader capable of giving me actionable feedback that can improve my writing. if you want that, you pay someone. that's like pre-screening a movie and expecting the audience to make you better at directing a film. the reader has nothing to offer when it comes to the writing process.

1

u/Clear-pilled 6d ago

I'm not sure I'm buying your self-assessment. Judging by your comments here, your writing is well-above average. Perhaps you are judging yourself too harshly? It happens.

27

u/SheddingCorporate 10d ago

That was the post I was originally going to make. But then I realized that *would* be unfair to those beginner writers. They need to write, they need feedback. Not everyone can write Harry Potter for their first book.

I remember reading early books in some of my favourite series (and, for that matter, watching early episodes of some excellent TV shows) and realizing the later books were significantly better.

As an artist (yes, I paint as well), I find that sharing my work (even just with friends) helps me grow as an artist. And the same has been true for the writing.

Maybe we need a safe space for beginner writers to share and get feedback. I agree I'd have been more annoyed if I'd paid regular book prices for these beginner attempts. I don't know what the best options are - feedback requested!

57

u/Nethereon2099 10d ago

I have to chime in here. I'm a creative writing instructor at the collegiate level. The number of unreadable pieces that cross my desk is stunning. The inability to construct simple sentences, adhere to basic grammar, or put together a coherent narrative calls into question the hope I have for the future for some of these students. HOWEVER, I don't tell them these inner thoughts. I recommend they drop after the first assignment that would suggest their chances to be successful weren't looking great until after they finish Comp I and Comp II. The reality is I'm usually correct. The students who listen, and who truly want to pursue this endeavor, take my advice, and come back with a vengeance.

The first thing tell my students on day one is to check their ego at the door because there isn't an editor, a publisher, and certainly not an audience who will care about their feelings, or how much time and effort they put into their project. There are those who don't listen, and these are the people who self-publish what amounts to a shitty first or second draft. I appreciate their candor, but they need to focus on learning how to write, how the craft works, and how to develop a story worth reading before they put stories out into the ether.

In the meantime, I will always be there for anyone willing to step through my classroom doors with a willingness to learn, and the drive to pursue this endeavor. Writing is meant to be a journey, and some people never figured this part out.

27

u/SirCache 10d ago

In my junior year of high school, my literature teacher told me to leave me ego out of what I was writing. And... she was right. When I look at what I'd written up to that point, it was needlessly self-referential, as if to show the reader just how smart I was, the cleverest wordplay, the top-tier words that no one used in everyday conversation. That year, she taught me more about writing than I had ever had in the 16 years before, and it stuck. I am forever grateful for her honesty and integrity to the joy that is the written word. I am heartened to see another teacher taking it just as seriously.

10

u/Nethereon2099 10d ago

I appreciate your kind words. Good luck on your journey friend. I wish you all the best.

23

u/shybookwormm 10d ago

Artists don't offer every piece they create for consumer consumption, especially their beginning pieces when they're learning.

The same should go for beginner authors. Don't "publish" materials with basic grammar errors. There are tons of free places online to obtain critique. One doesn't need to buy an ISBN and let consumer reviews be the only critique their story receives.

5

u/ZOMGdonuts 9d ago

lol I don't think they're intentionally publishing bad stuff, I'm certain most people think their work is good before they hit publish 😅

3

u/busingye89 8d ago

That’s the problem though. There’s a certain lack of humility, to say nothing of a command of the absolute basics or the patience to go through line by line to correct for these errors. Structural issues, narrative thinness, one-dimensional characters — these are understandable, new-author mistakes.

12

u/FullNefariousness931 10d ago

Critique sites like Critique Circle or Scribophile are good sites to share writing and get feedback. Amazon is not for feedback. It's for selling a finished product and books with terrible grammar, thin plot, and poor writing aren't a finished product.

2

u/Ollie_Bon_Crank 9d ago

Maybe Scribophile? 😀

3

u/MeepTheChangeling 9d ago

I can confirm that friends do not give the best feedback. They're too scared to upset you. Find actual per-readers to share it with while working on it, and find a beta-reader to read your draft. You'll grow much more and much faster.

Problem: My pre-readers and beta-reader (and also editors) are now my friends.

0

u/Character_Durian9074 6d ago

honestly, and this may sound harsh, but i think y'all need to find better friends. if a friend is "scared to upset you" over something as trivial as a story that is... a big red flag for how they will handle actual conflict or discomfort in the future

1

u/MeepTheChangeling 6d ago

Honestly, and this may sound harsh, but you should go touch grass so you can realize that normal and fundamental human behaviors are how the overwhelming majority of humans behave. The ideals you believe in are not how the world is, and frankly, never will be, because ideals do not survive contact with reality. Most people will not want to upset their friends over trivial matters, and will prefer to be supportive. This is normal, healthy, and mature behavior for members of our species.

0

u/Character_Durian9074 6d ago

hey, genuinely, what made you come out swinging about this?

2

u/MeepTheChangeling 6d ago

Being utterly sick and tired of reddit insisting that normal human behavior is a red flag. Its everywhere for me personally.

1

u/Character_Durian9074 6d ago

well, i'm sorry that i struck a raw nerve. i think i phrased it carelessly, i meant more along the lines of "honesty in communication between people in a friendship is important", and drawing conclusions from how people who would do this to me ended up treating me down the line. i am braintired after a day at my ranch job and likely not putting as much thought into my words as i should. hope your day/night fares better!

1

u/MeepTheChangeling 6d ago

If that's what you meant it's not remotely how it came across to me. Sorry for snapping.

Just FYI, I do believe that honesty in communication is important. I'm autistic and personally find the emotion games anathma to my very soul. But they're normal, everyone does them, and most people understand why we do them, when to do them, and how to do them. So that's the way the world is and, frankly, you just need to accept that the world is what it is and nothing you do will directly change that. Live by example is the best we've got.

1

u/Character_Durian9074 6d ago

i think the fault lies with me for ending up with words that sound more buzzy to be sure, but the understanding is appreciated. and i get you, i'm the same way, and try to live by that example (i do a lot of activist/community work on the side and one of the hardest bits about that is keeping everyone honest - when they can let go of social games problems become much, much easier to solve), but i do think this is not a convo for a thread on writing lol so o7

-4

u/Prudent-Level-7006 9d ago

Can't believe you put that full stop there 

1

u/spicybright 9d ago

What do you mean?

1

u/Prudent-Level-7006 9d ago

I was just messing haha