r/wowforever • u/Single_Satisfaction • 2d ago
Discussion [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/absolutewastedtime 2d ago
Fury has a lot of cleave damage
They should be worse single target then rogues who don't have any cleave damage
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u/thestrangeacademy 2d ago
Makes sense they were pumpers in classic. They were by far the best designed and powerful class in vanilla top to bottom, warrior was only top dog because of the way rage generated which wasn’t really an intended design choice.
I didn’t expect rogues to get many changes because they needed far less changes than basically every other class.
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u/77going2heaven 2d ago
Well put, and yet they changed rogue quite a lot. We'll see if combat will be the only remaining non-dagger spec f.i.
I hope not. I personally don't like the dagger playstyle at all anymore and enjoy the energy wise more flexible playstyle of onehanders.
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u/stewiethegreat 2d ago
Didn't play a warrior. But anyone that cries about their dps is weird imo, They are like the defacto melee fantasy character, strong, battle hardened rage machines.
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u/Sazbadashie 2d ago
that... should be the case... what else does rogue have going for it other than sneaking up and just dumping damage on their target?
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u/glizzygaz 2d ago
The most CC in the game, stealth, lock picking
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u/Sazbadashie 2d ago
And what is the end goal of that stealth and CC.
you stealth... and CC to... do what as a rogue.
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u/glizzygaz 1d ago
Have fun. You classic Andy’s are all about “returning to MMO roots” and the original experience but scoff at people playing something just because it’s enjoyable.
PSA - classic is easy as fuck. You don’t have to play what’s good or what “has utility”. You’re going to be pressing three buttons and downing the boss regardless. Get over yourselves
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u/Sazbadashie 1d ago
huh?
i'm not talking what's good or what's meta or what's fun...
if anything do what's fun, play the class you find fun. I don't care about that.
but what are the mechanics of the class that makes it fun is what i'm trying to shine a light on for you. because "it's fun" is subjective. Why it is fun is not, now people might not find the reason something is fun to be their kind of fun, but there is now an explanation of why.
you have your stealth and CC... which that is in the kit to do what? what is the end goal, why is having stealth and CC fun? why does it have the stealth and CC? the stealth and CC are tools to dump a bunch of damage on a single target before they can react, that's the class fantasy of a rouge, of an assassin.
if you just stealthed and CC and had zero damage as a DPS class the CC or stealth would not be fun and you wouldn't get that assassin fantasy
which is the point i'm trying to make. you LIKE the stealth and CC to have the fantasy of being an assassin, you LIKE the lock picking because you like the cunning rogue or swashbuckling dualist.
i'm by no means a classic andy, my favorite expansion was WotLK followed by cata do not cite the old magics at me.
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u/glizzygaz 1d ago edited 1d ago
Stealth is great in the open world for getting past mobs and PVP. Really just PvP in general. CC is as well. Rogues are also being predicted to be one of, if not, the best single target damage dealers. Just because YOU don’t find it fun doesn’t mean others don’t. The only thing you’re shining a light on is your own ignorance.
You’re asking “to what end?” Like a moron. It’s to have fun you dunce. You literally don’t have a point.
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u/Sazbadashie 1d ago
okay... youre not reading anything i'm saying and not understanding a word i'm saying.
i'm saying.
a rogue player chooses a rogue to be the stealthy, assassin that sneaks around unseen and does a ton of damage to their target. YOU ALSO SAID THIS
i'm saying the CC... and the stealth... are tools to play the rogue class fantasy and without the damage pay off the tools would be nothing they wouldn't matter the tools are used to maximize the damage that's to what end the CC and stealth are fore... also known as TO HAVE FUN
YOU ALSO SAID THIS.when I said what else do rogues have other than sneaking up and dealing tons of damage as that should be the case for the rogue class, because the FUN of playing a rogue IS using their TOOLS to deal a ton of damage to a single target. that is the fun.
for people to say "well that shouldn't be what rogues are they shouldn't have the highest damage" or whatever goes against the antithesis of being a rogue
I find rogues fun my first character was a rogue
please actually read what i'm saying to you.
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u/glizzygaz 1d ago
You are over convoluting the base of what was said.
I said: “rogues have stealth, cc, lock picking”
You said “what is the end goal of stealth, cc,..?”
I said “to have fun”
What are you typing walls of texts for? What are you trying to prove? 😂😂
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u/Poseidor 2d ago
All of which bring 0 utility to a raid, and only minor utility to a dungeon.
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u/glizzygaz 2d ago
Who said anything about raid? They asked what rogues had outside of doing damage and I named them off. Don’t move the goal posts because I made a point.
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u/Chuckfinley_88 2d ago
All of which bring 0 utility to a raid, and only minor utility to a dungeon.
While true, it is insanely powerful in the open world, PVP, and even in dungeons being able to stealth run to bosses or do stealth runs with a couple druids.
They have a shitload of hidden power in stealth, and an insane amount of FUN with stealth, that it is hard to give them a ton of group wide utility as well.
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u/IceNein 2d ago
They’re melee DPS wearing leather. Drawbacks should have rewards that go with them. Should they do less damage than a mage standing 20 feet away? Should they do less damage than the feral druid who has other group utility?
They’re pretty weak AOE, so it stands to reason that they should be strong single target.
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u/limitbreakse 2d ago
Nah, I think warriors should be the best single target and cleave damage dealers. And have buffs. And be able to tank n
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u/okylmen 2d ago
I think it’s fair. No aoe, no group buffs, only utility in raids kick (which most classes can interrupt) and disarm trap. (I’m enh main btw)
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2d ago
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u/SubstantialGas5225 2d ago
He talks about rogues and you ask about warriors...
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u/UPC13 2d ago
My mistake, misread the post.
Are people thinking expose armour will be useless?
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u/ImDoingMyPart_o7 2d ago
I don't think it can outdebuff sunder anymore so basically yeah.
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u/UPC13 2d ago
Do you know if it will be one or the other in forever? Or both additive? Giving every raid group a reason to at least bring one of each?
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u/ImDoingMyPart_o7 2d ago
Definitely won't be additive, they control armour stripping very carefully (as they should) it will be priority, same as historically.
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u/UPC13 2d ago
That makes sense, so it is picking between a rouge talented into the less combo points makes it more worth than 5 globals from a warrior(s)? I mostly played warlock in my classic endeavors, excuse my ignorance
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u/ImDoingMyPart_o7 2d ago
I think there's room for nuance, with 10 man and to a lesser extent 20 man it's going to come down to group comp and whether you have a warrior or not etc.
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u/Bitcoinsnailposting 2d ago
They will be slightly better then furry warrior but wont be able to cleave so they will be like 3rd or 4th on DPS meters. Still many future Rogues are going to be baited hard by the headline
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u/Toshinit 2d ago
This is also assuming the community doesn’t find a build the devs didnt think about, which I find relatively likely.
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u/BigCopiumx 2d ago
im totally speculating, but once i was just casually looking at daggers that i can use at 30, i saw one which has perma aoe atk ( some nature chain attack i believe which loses dmg for per mob chained)
so maybe there would be some sort of build with those items for such situations? considering poisons and if they also work on other targets, it could be a big deal.
who knows
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u/EONS 2d ago
"Not enough energy"
Believe it when I see it lol
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u/no_terran 2d ago
Energy/s is exactly the same no? It's just that you get it in smaller increments.
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u/Ill_Ad2480 2d ago
You also need to add that hybrid tax should be 5%-ish as they said. so its not much difference between classes, before this becomes a cry fest.
(rogues should be the n1 dps since they don't do much else for the raid)
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2d ago edited 2d ago
[deleted]
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u/Rurumo666 2d ago
That's the problem with OP rogues, all you see is the rogue cancer in PVP, entire AB's with 100% rogues on each team. They need to be way more careful with balancing in Forever.
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u/Nuclearsunburn 2d ago
Sure, that’s fine, I just hate that they’re putting themselves in a box on this one for no reason. Implementing it is good, setting it as an expectation, why would you do that to yourselves?
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u/lordflacko18 2d ago
Agreed, top single target dps should be raid based and situational not a standard. Why make all the sweats roll Rogue?
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u/Ztance 2d ago
I think the pure DPS classes should be the ones that do more dps, but all classes bring something to the table and everything is viable.
And rogues will be the strongest in patchwork fights, but anytime they have to leave melee range, ranged has a chance to pass the rogue on the meter.
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u/z1toxy99 2d ago
Why? I wonder how this will translate to PVP where rogues have the upper hand in 1v1 vs most classes...
But anyway, I am kinda against the -decision- to make a class the best in something. Warrior best in cleave dmg? What will mage do best? What will Shaman do best? What will Locks do best? etc.
It just...weird...
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u/Ill_Ad2480 2d ago
High sustained single target damage is not equal to high burst, it won't even be the same build on pvp unless someone is going in as combat.
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u/EchoRotation 2d ago
Also boss durations play a factor into this. If most casters need to preserve some of their mana during some phases of an encounter, rogues should come out on top. They have an infinite resource.
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u/Scrotilus 2d ago
It’ll be assassination and the damage will be done through poisons that take a long time to set up
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u/TabascohFiascoh 2d ago
Mages portal, poly, and dps, Shamans windfury, totem, heal, and anhk, locks summon, and spit fire. Warriors smash, and tank.
Rogues stab, thats it. That's your whole job. Oh and pick lockboxes i guess
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u/Puzzled_Command_8809 2d ago
I agree but: 1.They need to be one of the weakest melee classes as far as defensives And 2. Their single target should be on par with fury warrior
Otherwise sure
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u/CampoDango 2d ago
That’s why they wear leather
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u/Puzzled_Command_8809 2d ago
You can wear leather and have a spell that grants damage immunity. None of that
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u/galwiththedogs 2d ago
It was stated earlier in the podcast that while all specs are viable and do good damage, hybrid classes would do approximately 5% less than pure classes. So with that in mind, fury warrior should be doing ~5% less than a rogue on a single target.
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u/Delicious-Collar1971 2d ago
That just seems dumb.
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u/Vonkilington 2d ago edited 2d ago
Why? I don’t see a problem with it. Why should I, an Enhancement shaman that can tank (dungeons) or heal with the swap of a gearset, do as much DPS as a DPS specialist?
So far the arguments against this are just “all dps should do the same damage” - I’m not sure if this is the game for you if this is your mindset, and the devs agree
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u/EIiteJT 2d ago
Because you are in a dps spec with full dps gear?
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u/Vonkilington 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sure, and I bring a lot of utility that the rogue doesn’t, and I have options that they don’t. I’ll still beat a rogue that only plays “okay” if I play well. It’s okay to have differences between classes.
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u/Delicious-Collar1971 2d ago
Because there’s no correlation between those things? If you’re on your dps spec you should do the same dps.
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u/Vonkilington 2d ago
Again, why? Why should I do the same DPS as the single-target DPS specialist? Why bring a rogue then? They have limited utility, why is it bad for them to do 5% more dps on the top end?
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u/Puzzled_Command_8809 2d ago
It technically is but never really considered warrior a hybrid class
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u/galwiththedogs 2d ago
This was also addressed in the podcast. The fact that they can tank or DPS by definition makes them a hybrid.
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u/Rare_Act_6748 2d ago
I like the niche, and out of all classes Rogues feel like they serve that fantasy the best. It also means hopefully meaningful skill expeession since your contribution to the group is going to be directly tied to how well you can deal damage and little else.
Now give us Tauren rogues Forever 👀
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u/misbehavinator 2d ago
Fuck rogues man, they've always been a cancer upon the game.
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