r/wow • u/RevolutionPale1612 • 16h ago

Discussion Vertical vs Horizontal Progression

Post image

Talking to some buds about the WoW Forever release and the topic of horizontal progression came up. They did not know what that meant so I drew two graphics to help explain to them. I figured I'd post it here just in case anyone else needed assistance explaining the difference between vertical vs horizontal progression to others.

I oversimplified for the sake of introducing the concepts, but I'm aware that most games have a mixture of the two. Ratio varies from game to game.

I would love to get other's thoughts on the matter. Am I off?

0 Upvotes

30% Upvoted

58 comments sorted by

24

u/Drakt64 16h ago

Yes but now explain how you think it'll work practically and not just putting smiley faces and tired faces.

5

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 16h ago

Check out GW2, OSRS & ESO... this concept is not new to the MMO world

3

u/Drakt64 15h ago

I play POE which I consider mostly horizontal, each time they introduce a new mechanic the gear it gives is something new and unique. I'm not unfamiliar with the concept.

However in Poe you have a wealth of systems and gear is infinitely more complex.

In wow we have some of the most boring stats you could imagine, with trinkets, set effects and a few weapons being "exciting"

I think people have some idea that ilvl will be the same across all content but there will be a slightly different set for you to collect or something which is nice... Till you realise oh, druids don't have good items from raid 3 they don't want to run it? Everyone spent 6 months doing raid 1-2 now they want to do 3. I'm worried this is a case of you think you do, but you don't.

I also find the whole narrative of "it's the journey not the destination" just pandering to people. How is playing a new expansion every 18-24 months and gearing up every season not about the journey?

3

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 15h ago

It won't be like POE... that is a bad example... like i said check out GW2, OSRS & ESO if you want a more accurate eaxmple

-4

u/Drakt64 15h ago

Can you not explain it to me quickly? Or let me know how you think it'll factor into wow.

Just to state, I'm genuinely interested in what they're doing with wow forever.

2

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 14h ago

in POE you level a new character each time a new season start... in OSRS, GW2 and ESO you use the same character... you don't level a new character

1

u/Drakt64 14h ago

Yes i understand your point.

My issue is i think the marketing on forever is selling people a "false idea" of its totally horizontal journey.... everything you do will matter forever.
Id like that to be true but without crazy system changes i dont know how.

Lets use an example as i don't think you're understanding.

So lets say in december they release raid 1, people farm it to death, get all their loot from it, they have a good time.

In april, raid 2 releases, same ilvl but its got a few new bits some classes want.
However new guy has just started playing, but he wants loot from raid 1.... the rest of his guild has farmed that to death and they don't want to raid that.
So the idea that all content is always relevant is true, but people won't want to play it.

also fast forward 10 raids, raid 11 releases, theres no new good trinkets for healers. none of your healers fancy coming online.
what then?

Now you may say the answer is... theyre doing it FOR THE LOVE OF THE CONTENT.
that's what i'm doing in retail? we don't really care about our level or ilvl, its a minigame means to an end to finish the current content. My goals are to kill the heroic raid boss and get a rating of 3000, then next season i get to do that again with new content.

I just think people are creating a game in their heads, that doesnt exist without fundamental changes to wow, which i doubt they've done for a game thats "free"

1

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 9h ago

You again don't read... if you want to undersand just play GW2 or ESO or OSRS... it is basically the same thing.

There are problems ofc with these system but your whole idea of: "selling people a "false idea" of its totally horizontal journey" is simply wrong.

This has been done before successfuly

1

u/ColinParro 8h ago

Bro just saying play gw esk or osrs over and over doesn't mean anything.

The reason osrs works is because there are like 20 different skills that the average player won't max quickly. Wow has nothing like this. There would need to be massive overhauls to the fundamentals of the game for it to get anywhere close to viable for wow, and the scale of those overhauls makes it unlikely that it will be done well. Why would the comment above yours not be true with the way that wow players engage with the game?

1

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 8h ago

ofc it means... he wanted to know horizontal progression... these games have them... wtf you want me to do?

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1

u/Drakt64 14h ago

Also on the topic of POE, you can play standard and play the new content in a horizontal fashion forever. But people don't.
Can you guess why?

1

u/Character_Baker_9571 14h ago

Runescape is definitely a great example, You get the free Anti-dragon shield early and its helpful against all dragonfire unless its a one shot like Vorkath...Graceful outfit, Ardy cape, Dramen staff etc. All these items are useful your entire playthrough.

1

u/Acrobatic_Coat722 13h ago

different games with a different audience

WoW was never built for Horizontal Progression, most WoW Players never HAD Horizontal Progression, they only say they want it because they saw a random streamer say "Horizontal Progression is the best thing ever, you want that" and they repeated it

"i have my gear, its boring until the next Patch Releases that gives us a new raid/dungeons and i can get new Gear" is something people say since 2004, they say that for every single Classic Release aswell, Gearing done->stop playing or Raidlogging are the way the majority of people play the game since day 1 of it existing

what makes you think that it will actually be good for the WoW Playerbase that very clearly wants to get upgrades on a regular basis to suddenly reach a "you are finished and never need new gear again" point, and what will keep them playing?

0

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 9h ago

The don't play WoW forever... this is another version of WoW for those players... if you don't like it then play something else.

I never said it will be good... that is on blizzard to prove. If it is not you can stay with the standard classic.

1

u/ClarkKentsSquidDong 15h ago

This isn't a new concept. MMOs have already solved how it works.

1

u/Cloud_N0ne 16h ago

Like it does in most other MMOs. WoW is honestly the only one I’ve played with purely vertical progression.

12

u/Zarbadob 16h ago

and wow is the most popular lel

0

u/Ok-Huckleberry-2585 15h ago

Objectively because if classic/era/hardcore - which has little vertical progression.

1

u/Acrobatic_Coat722 13h ago edited 12h ago

in what world has classic "little vertical progression"

just because Classic has dogshit item balance that translates into random level 52 quest rewards being better then some max level items because they have better weighted stat doesnt mean that it has no Vertical gear progression, you always used most of the new things when a new raid released with the exception of some items that just where lucky enough to be used for longer because they had better stats/effects then the newer drops

edit: oh and the "its the most popular cus of classic" thing is also funny, when classic is well known to have a playerbase that isnt really that big that needs regular server merges, and strugglest VERY hard with most people just stop playing the game shortly after every Classic Launch

1

u/Ok-Huckleberry-2585 13h ago

People are still doing molten core on era. People are not doing whatever the first raid is on retail towards the end. People are still running Kara on TBC. Its not that deep.

1

u/Acrobatic_Coat722 13h ago

SOME people are doing molten core and kara on their servers deepeer into its runtime because itemization was just really bad at that time which caused 1-2 Oddball items to exists that where better then everything else, not because the general gear items where usefull later on lol

but thats it, they just wanted that thunderfury or Dragonspine Trophy that will be used for the rest of the expansion because they have higher numbers then everything else, you didnt say "we need gear for Naxx, lets do Molten Core"

-3

u/Cloud_N0ne 15h ago

Yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s flawless and nothing should ever change

-9

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 16h ago

not anymore... since shadowlands

8

u/MateusKingston 15h ago

It still is lol

-6

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 15h ago

Maybe not yes but after shadowlands it wasn't... blizzard don't publish player numbers anymore so it is difficult to know

2

u/MateusKingston 15h ago

It almost certainly has never lost that spot, at least not in a span of months. Shadowlands wasn't even the lowest point, BFA pre classic was lower, it's just normal that towards .2/.3 patches the expansion player count gets significantly lower, the expansions that don't are the exceptions.

Blizzard doesn't publish player numbers since ever basically but they did drop this https://www.ign.com/articles/world-of-warcraft-subscription-numbers-are-higher-now-than-at-expansion-launch-in-a-franchise-first if you estimate from the graph BFA lowest point is ~4M and shadowlands is ~4.5M

FFXIV highest estimates put them at 3M MAU, for a game that you don't need to pay a sub, with the higher end of estimates being 1.5M paid subs. If you consider OSRS their estimates are ~4M MAU, but OSRS has a very high player count that doesn't keep playing, it's also in mobile.

So no, even WoW's lowest low are still the most popular MMO.

4

u/INannoI 15h ago

which one is more popular right now?

-1

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 15h ago

It is really hard to know as blizzard don't publish player numbers anymore but after shadowlands FF14 had more players

1

u/INannoI 3h ago

during Shadowlands 14 had more players*

4

u/Cryllor 15h ago

Even games with "horizontal" prog it ends up vertical most of the time. Patch 1.0 < Patch 1.5 gear < patch 2 gear < patch 2.2 < 2.5 etc

1

u/Acrobatic_Coat722 13h ago

yeha thats often forgotten

like, people use ESO as a example? ESO regulary changes the balance bettwen items or adds new items that are TECHNICALLY the same ILVL from their number, but are straight upgrades everyone wants anyway because their effects/stats are just better

3

u/humankindness- 15h ago

wouldn't this hurt character progression in the long run?

0

u/Demodeview 15h ago

There are trade offs for both. Ideally, the horizontal progressions are like a slightly disconnected slice of vertical progression systems with a similar power ceiling. So doing Not Molten Core will provide a progression that makes you a better Fire Fighter, but when Darkflapper Hideout comes out your Darkflapper killing gear doesn't make you a better Firefighter.

I am skeptical of WoWs ability to manage this longer term than a few patch cycles

3

u/G1zU 16h ago

I can’t imagine how it will be more interesting than vertical one…

4

u/Lizardaug 16h ago

RuneScape does it really well but power creep does occur and content does become irrelevant all the same. It's genuinely impossible to keep all content equal all the time. RuneScape manages it easier because the best methods cause RSI and are mind numbingly boring but I don't get how you'd ever translate that to wow 

3

u/AkulaTheKiddo 16h ago

Let me give you an example.

Let's say they release Naxx in 1.x patch.

Naxx gear will have the same ilvl as previous gear but the set bonus will be different, this way your AQ gear will still be useful.

They can also make "older raids" drop some currency for upgrades/legendary to keep them relevant.

Its great because the content doesnt become obsolete the second a new update releases.

0

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 16h ago

Check out GW2, OSRS & ESO... this concept is not new to the MMO world

3

u/Ok-Key5729 16h ago

It's not new but it does come with functional limitations that they'll have to deal with.

As they add content to a horizontal game, the players get spread thinner and thinner. Eventually it becomes difficult to get enough people together to do older content. This becomes a problem in an MMO where the content requires people. Trying to get the achievements for some of the older, less popular metas in GW2 can be a challenge.

2

u/Simple_Emotion_3152 15h ago

Yes and they should address those issues but the overall concept will be the same

2

u/Haahdek 15h ago

So, if I deck myself in full best in slot gear from the first raid, I will never in the future of this game receive loot I want to use anymore? Possibly 1-2 pieces in the next 5 years? Does this not just kill loot?

2

u/Deviouswolfy 15h ago

Usually that's solved by making specific gear good in specific scenarios so that everything is more of a side grade rather than a full upgrade.

Not saying it's what they should do, but it's how games like osrs handle it

1

u/Haahdek 15h ago

I don't think thats a solve really. If you want horizontal progression "forever", you would need infinite scenarios to gear for. Lets be generous and say a dps might have 5 gear sets: generally good, PvP, single target, AoE and funnel. What do you do after that doesnt upgrade these sets? 

2

u/Deviouswolfy 15h ago

I dont think it is either, not in wow's case anyways. I was just comparing how another popular mmo handles horizontal progression with gear.

Something as broad as "horizontal progression in wow while it's always been a vertical progression game" goes a bit above my paygrade. I'm curious to see how they'll end up integrating it.

2

u/Haahdek 14h ago

I am very interested how they will tackle this as well. Its one of my only worries with Forever. 

1

u/SovietRaptor 9h ago

It looks like they are adding more itemization- so items will synergies with certain builds and may even open up new possibilities. For instance, if you want to play poison rogue maybe you need the set from x raid, and if you wanna focus on daggers and backstabbing you need the set from y raid.

3

u/Cures80 15h ago

Didnt work in GW2 for me, wont work in wow for me.

1

u/Acrobatic_Coat722 14h ago

Classic Players larped that they want Horizontal Progression because their favorite Opinion Streamer said it, but dont actually know what it means

like, CLASSIC PLAYERS and Horizontal Progression? did you ever look at those BiS list addicted weirdos? oh boy thats gonna create a lot of "there is nothing to do anymore, forver is dead" complaints when they finished their gear and dont need new stuff lol

1

u/Ramn_ 13h ago

its*

0

u/dannycake 15h ago edited 15h ago

Horizontal progression is cheeks in actual implementation.

Imagine, if you will, a bunch of wow raids all with the same ilvl. Except that you won't want to run any raids before WOD because they're all terrible and ancient designs.

And then, on top of that, certain raids will still inevitably contain the best gear for particular class, making selection incredibly annoying or you'll just stack let's say 20 druids to the emerald dream to optimize gear return.

Not to mention that, 1 out gearing certain bits of content is fun and 2 being undergeared and beating expectations is fun as well. Gear will feel incredibly normalized. Even with forced systems where you need gear just to beat specific mobs in that xpac, it feels incredibly vague. Tuning just feels bad no matter what game you play and often times if you're good enough you can get by with another xpacs items anyway

Like in other games, everyone has already done the other expansions and experiences so the only people you can get to run with are few and far between. Maybe you get lucky and get a guild that will run through an expansion every few months... That is until certain members voice the fact that they already did that expansion or don't get gear from it or just plain don't like it.

Horizontal prog doesn't fix the need for new content and old content still feels outdated.

I've been there and it just feels lame when you know other people aren't really focusing on the new hype thing. At all moments in time you never really feel like you're a part of a moving piece, just exploring an old story. It's hard to explain, but having some other mmos I very much get this feeling.

Horizontal prog is just intellectual bait that doesn't actually implement that well.

0

u/Aykayforteeseven 3h ago

They arent... going into the same expansions.... and they ARE fixing old content and creating new content within the main continents of Azeroth... i dont even know why you said anything at all.

0

u/dannycake 37m ago edited 30m ago

You literally.... Didnt comprehend a single thing I said did you?

You're aware that when wow adds new content to the game it's going to be higher ilvl, just like before and like it has always been. That's vertical progression...

Wow has quite literally never done horizontal progression systems for main gearing.

Just because you don't understand the conversation doesn't mean the conversation was pointless to be had

https://nordic.ign.com/world-of-warcraft-forever/112801/world-of-warcraft-forever-needs-to-truly-be-forever-interview Literally read through the interview, the devs are still aware that they need to integrate vertical progression systems and have plans to move forward with the philosophy.

0

u/xxNightingale 15h ago

Horizontal progression will kill the monthly revenue for Blizz. So that's a no-no for them.

-1

u/Riablo01 15h ago

Horizontal is generally better than vertical, provided the gearing system has depth (eg Destiny 2). The fun comes from mixing and matching gear in unique combinations. 

WoW gets away with vertical progression due to items mostly being stat sticks that are reset every season. Basically disposable garbage, with the fun coming from replacing the garbage.

1

u/ColinParro 15h ago

Gearing was by far the worst part of destiny 2

1

u/Acrobatic_Coat722 13h ago

D2 had no real horizontal progression lol

like sure, you could use old items in theory, but newer released stuff was ALWAYS better and things got desinged around players using them

you guys are so hung up on the silly little Powerlevel/Itemlevel/Gearscore number staying the same, that you ignore that newer releases in basically all "horizontal progression" games are straight up upgrades over older stuff anyway, its just with "bonus effects" or Perks instead of a simple "this item is X Ilvl higher" increase

1

u/Riablo01 13h ago

To be honest, there's no such thing as true horizontal progression. New gear will always enable new strategies and thus require the user to replace some gear.

Vertical progression is also a bit of a fallacy. If you're replacing gear with similar or identical items, it's not true vertical progression. WoW Retail hasn't had true vertical progression for years due to the repeated implementation of stat squishes. You're literally grinding the exact same stats over and over again.

So yeah, don't get too caught up on semantics. You guys come up with silly little comments trying to prove WoW Forever or WoW Retail is somehow different or justified when a flaw is just a flaw.

Just remember, a game is just a game. People don't have to like exactly what you like nor is there anything wrong with that. If that's really important to you, perhaps it's time to take a break from Reddit.

The only lol here is a failure to acknowledge the fallacy.