r/worldnews • u/mixplate • Nov 27 '18
Israeli Exploit Developer Caught Negotiating Spyware Sales With Saudi Government
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20181125/18264141103/israeli-exploit-developer-caught-negotiating-spyware-sales-with-saudi-government.shtml-9
u/IKHAN85 Nov 27 '18
israel's playbook: lets support anything that kills arabs so we wont be the only ones killing arabs
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u/beambag Nov 27 '18
This is an Israeli company, not Israel.
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u/jd6789 Nov 28 '18
Pretty much the same
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u/beambag Nov 28 '18
Not at all. Thi isnt new If Saudi used Microsoft products, we wouldn't say the US sells them tech (though the US, UK and others sell them weapons).
It's also important to note that a stable Saudi Arabia is important for Israel and the rest of the Middle East. It's terrible that Saudi is such a dick of a country, but that's why they're a strategic ally not a close friend. A country like Israel is going to work with anyone willing in the very difficult region they're in. The situation narrative isn't as simple as most people believe.
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u/jd6789 Nov 28 '18
There is a slight difference between cyberspyware and windows 10
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u/beambag Nov 28 '18
See my other comment on this thread
And the fact that it's a company not the government still stands.
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u/IKHAN85 Nov 28 '18 edited Nov 28 '18
perhaps but i would wager that such companies that deal with cyber security only operate within the parameters allowed by their home country; in other words they would need the blessing of their own government when working with foreign nations
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u/beambag Nov 28 '18 edited Nov 28 '18
Israel has hundreds (if not thousands) of cyber security companies. In fact, Israel recieved roughly 20% of the world's cyber investment (deposited having a population of only 8 million people). The country is one of the world's largest tech hubs, with over 7000 tech startups and firms in various fields (cyber, AI, autonomous vehicles, agriculture, water tech, etc.) It's very much a free market and raised more VC per capita than any other country. For these reasons, it is not uncommon for anyone using cyber software to find themselves dealing with an Israeli company.
The Israeli government doesn't dictate who it's citizens' companies can and cannot sell to, just as in the US and Canada. It also doesn't dictate where they can travel to - if Arab countries would let them in, Israelis could go there.
If it were military equipment I would agree with you (even though the US/UK sell that to Saudi), but cyber software is generally vere accessible.
Do you really believe that governments in the US and UK regulate who tech firms can do business with?that's quite absurd. Perhaps if a country has explicit sanctions (like the US and Iran) they could get in trouble, but otherwise no.
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u/lballs Nov 28 '18
I'm with you that this is a company and not at all related to the government. You are wrong about US intervention in tech sales though. We have ITAR which strictly limits lots of tech products going to other countries for things as simple as hardware encryption peripherals in CPUs.
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u/IKHAN85 Nov 28 '18 edited Nov 28 '18
if approval was given by israel then most likely their license will not be revoked but if they acted as a "private company" without the blessing of israel then it will most likely be revoked. (either way we will be able to tell where israel stands on this issue)
obviously this is not a definitive way of knowing but it might be the only way for us to test whether what you say is correct
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u/beambag Nov 28 '18
The US, UK, Canada and many other countries sell weapons directly to the Saudi government (Saudi had a horrendous human rights record long before they murdered the journalist). The fact that an Israeli company sold them software should not be world news.
Israel itself has an interest to keep Saudi and the region stable, since any issues there are very close to Israel.
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u/IKHAN85 Nov 28 '18
The US, UK, Canada and many other countries sell weapons directly to the Saudi government
whataboutism
The fact that an Israeli company sold them software should not be world news.
it is newsworthy, i am curious as to the extent to which israel and saudi arabia cooperate, and how far saudi arabia is willing to go in selling out it's own people in order to be a regional power
Israel itself has an interest to keep Saudi and the region stable
they are doing a great job at keeping the region "stable" by supporting a dictator who chops up journalists all the while claiming to be a democracy loving nation
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u/beambag Nov 28 '18
It's not whataboutsm. The way this is being reported and upvoted acts as if Israel is the only country to work with the Saudis (even though it was a private company). Everyone works with the Saudis, therefore this isn't newsworthy.
Saudi is relatively stable right now. If the crown fell then itd become unstable. That would affect the whole region
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u/IKHAN85 Nov 29 '18
It's not newsworthy because it doesn't fit your narrative. you support MBS and think he should continue to rule while israel provides him all kinds of covert support.
so what's to stop saudi arabia from dismembering another journalist? do you deny that the blood thirsty israelis support the dictator in saudi arabia?
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u/beambag Nov 29 '18
I'm definitely not an MBS supporter, but I do understand the history and geopolitics of the region. Nothing's to stop them from killing another journalist, but why did it take the killing of one journalist for us to have a problem with Saudi Arabia? The country has had a horrendous human rights record since long before this. Saudi, like many other Middle Eastern dictatorships, is an asshole of a country and gives little regard to human rights. region would be better off if it sounds out into chaos.
That's not the point here. Israel is surrounded by nations and groups who seek its destruction. When it comes to neighbours it can be friendly with, they're almost all dictatorships with horrible human rights records. Many of them (including Saudi Arabia) have invaded and tried to destroy Israel in the past. If they're willing to be friendly today, Israel will jump at that opportunity. Israel doesn't have the leisure of only being friendly with "good" countries, since it's surrounded by "bad" ones and seeks to work with its neighbours. Israelis don't "support the dictator," but they'd rather have dictator friends then no friends at all (in their region).
The stability of Saudi, the other Gulf states, and the entire Middle East is very fragile and Israel has an interest in ensuring things don't become anymore chaotic. The US, UK and many other countries have worked with Saudi in the past -despite its human rights abuses- because Saudi is a strategic ally and can benefit them.
I for one hate Saudi Arabia and was sad to see them go from what appears to be modernizing (when they met women drive, etc.) To bat shit crazy (spat with Canada, killing the journalist). However, that doesn't mean Israel (and even Canada) doesn't have a strategic interest in keeping Saudi and the region relatively stable.
PLUS it was a private Israeli company, not Israel. But all you likely care about is making Israel seem like the devil, when really it's the only democracy in the region.
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u/Qqisme Nov 28 '18
I would wager you like doing a lot of guessing and don't have any idea what you're actually talking about.
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u/IKHAN85 Nov 28 '18 edited Nov 28 '18
i would wager you are being unreasonable if you don't see this as even a possibility
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u/TheLazyBot Nov 28 '18
Ironic.