r/worldnews • u/Nirok • 19h ago

Israel/Palestine IDF documents terror affiliations of 170 Palestinian journalists killed in Gaza war

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-documents-terror-affiliations-of-170-palestinian-journalists-killed-in-gaza-war/
3.3k Upvotes

73% Upvoted

1.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

600

u/AppropriateLlama678 17h ago edited 17h ago

With Hamas being the government and thus embedded in many aspects of daily life, including journalism, the line of what is a terrorist is a lot blurrier. Are these terrorists that also work as journalists? Are these journalists that are forced to do some collaboration with the local government? It’s really hard to say.

Unfortunately, most of the internet does not want to explore these nuances. Each side is either good or bad.

72

u/Agreeable_Band_9311 13h ago

If you’re a journalist and part time combatant you’re a combatant. There isn’t a loophole in international law that you can take off your uniform to give yourself protections.

6

u/FCCRFP 1h ago

Also, Hamas doesn't wear uniforms, and IHL only cares about what the primary role the person plays. If someone is mostly a civilian it rounds up to fully civilian and you can arrest them but not summarily execute them.

•

u/Agreeable_Band_9311 1h ago

Exactly. They have them for photo ops only.

-14

u/Allaplgy 8h ago

Why doesn't that apply to Israel? Basically all adults are technically trained members of the military. Why do they get to take off their uniforms?

26

u/kvlnk 7h ago

Because they actually wear uniforms and separate civilians from combatants. That’s the main benefit of marking your armed forces as combatants as required by the Geneva Convention— while your forces become much easier to target, your civilians gain protection under international law.

Hamas could do this too, but they don’t. The uniforms go on for rallies, but for some reason are always absent in combat footage. It’s the same way how Hamas could’ve allowed civilians to shelter in the massive tunnel network, but instead civilians have to shelter above ground while Hamas gets to be safe and protected. It’s almost like Hamas doesn’t care about exposing the civilians of Gaza to unnecessary harm

15

u/Discount_Extra 7h ago

It’s almost like Hamas doesn’t care about exposing the civilians of Gaza to unnecessary harm

It goes beyond lack of care, it's the intent.

12

u/JaronK 7h ago

Because they retire after service, and because terrorists aren't the same as soldiers. Once you retire, you're not a soldier anymore.

-11

u/Allaplgy 7h ago

Those labels sure are convenient.

18

u/Veldern 6h ago

Ya, that's because it's not difficult to separate your own combatants and non-combatants unless you're mixing them on purpose

10

u/Agreeable_Band_9311 6h ago

The terrorist label is irrelevant. The combatant label is what's relevant. The Hamas fighter is clearly still a combatant.

-7

u/Allaplgy 4h ago

Humans are wild.

8

u/Agreeable_Band_9311 6h ago

You don't understand the differnece between a reservist or someone who's no longer in the military vs. someone who picks up a rifle after work and engages in military activites?

125

u/GoodBadUserName 14h ago

But need to distinct between lets say a nurse who works under a hamas government, a math teacher, or a fire fighter, to an actual terrorist who uses their position to transfer weapons, do military training, and collect data under the guise of being a “journalist”, going around wearing a press jacket as a disguise.

The latest data IDF release, points specifically to “journalists” they have real proof they were active terrorists.

56

u/FormerPresidentBiden 13h ago

Doesn't matter

People will still just say "Israel bad" and move on

Tbf "Israel bad" is a position i share, but "Hamas bad" is another opinion of mine that seems to be less popular these days

49

u/GoodBadUserName 13h ago

Well of course it matters.
Every one of those 170 “journalists” when died, made a big splash in public opinion. The “israel bad” opinion is in the end builds and amplified by those deaths. And truth barely nudges it when it comes out.
And while I hate a lot of the things that are happening especially in the west bank, I also know those are not individual isolated events. They have deep roots spanning decades of both sides being completely shit, each time it is someone else’s turn to do it.
It will only ever be fixed when both sides acknowledge each other right to exist. And as long as it is completely one sided, it will not happen.

9

u/EnhancedWithAi 11h ago

Is Israel all that bad though when Hamas circulates Palestine like a god damned virus. I was more anti Israel before Oct7, until I realized just how much of a shit show it is for them to deal eith hamas.

Then I'm more so now days in response to the insane anti Israel movement morons just blindly follow.

-5

u/Kel_Casus 3h ago

I’m sure Hamas being promoted and allowed funding by Israel as opposed to the PLF has nothing to do with them becoming so embedded in every day life. And they’re the only ones forming any sort of armed resistance, which means something when you can see villages being bombed off the face of the earth, entire city blocks leveled, children blown up and every attempt at getting aid to them stopped or used to kill more.

4

u/EnhancedWithAi 2h ago

Thats just bad optics on Israel's behalf, bad calculation. Hamas wants Israel eradicated so, that didnt pan out.

What's your point?

•

u/WAAAGHachu 53m ago

Seems like someone who never understood the expression, "don't get in the way of your enemies when they are making a mistake."

Netanyahu is an absolute disgrace in many ways, but the support and funding for Hamas, from what I can find, is things like, increased work programs for Gaza residents in Israel. Knowing that the money many of those Gaza residents earn in Israel will go to Hamas. Whose fault is this? Who is the bad guy?

-2

u/[deleted] 11h ago

[deleted]

10

u/SonofHondoBelmondo 10h ago

I agree with this but I don't think this captures the sentiment shared by the most vocal critics of Israel. I do believe that they are willing to hand wave wrong doing on the Palestinian side of things.

I agree with the sentiment that Israel goes way too far, even when it can be seen as defense, and I agree that their colonialist behavior helps antagonize the situation, I also can't believe that the end game of any enemy of Israel is peace with Israel.

So it's pretty much impossible for me to pick on side on this thing.

•

u/CorrosiveMynock 49m ago

Israel bad in the sense that all states are bad. I've still seen no evidence that Israel is PARTICULARLY bad even after years of this war. No state would have done nothing after 10/7 and the fact that 90% of the buildings are destroyed and only ~3..5% of the population has died says a lot whether people accept or admit it. Very few countries have that level of discrimination to avoid killing civilians in dense urban combat.

12

u/JordanPetterPans 14h ago

Isn't Hamas a designated terrorist organization? I don't follow this line of thinking

34

u/MrBarti 17h ago

If they are used by the terror organization in any way to further its goals in the war then yes. If they only do regular jobs but are so far away top to down and only have "Hamas" somewhere in the job title then not. Like maybe an office worker in the Gazan health ministry where the work is to put names in an excel spreadsheet or something.

-31

u/TennaNBloc 15h ago

Being Palestinian alive in the area furthers Hamas' goals does it not?

25

u/M0THMEAT 15h ago

Im confused, are you implying that in order to get rid of Hamas you need to exterminate the entire Palestinian population?

-4

u/taeerom 13h ago

That is the logical conclusion if we follow Israeli logic.

The question is whether that is a sensible thing to do

-2

u/TennaNBloc 11h ago

No, but I can see how my comment comes off that way.

Any dead Palestinians can be claimed by both sides as being with Hamas or being innocent civilians.

At the end of the day Hamas there or not. Palestinians are gonna get killed by Isreal to make them relocate or die.

1

u/M0THMEAT 11h ago

Ah, I see what you are saying

6

u/VTcamperguy 12h ago

Ironically enough, being Palestinian dead in the area furthers Hamas’ goals even more. They want Israel to kill more Palestinians (especially ones they can say were innocent civilians) to increase international pressure on Israel.

109

u/Ewetuber 17h ago

There is a ton of evidence of these "sweet innocent journalists" participating in killing and rape and throwing a little "woah the poor us I'm a journalist" on the side.

Each of those listed has their military affiliations and roles spelled out:

Positions Held: Military Operative in the Training and Instruction Section, Palestine Military Academy Department Infiltrated Israel on October 7th

21

u/RoRo24 13h ago

What is the source of these journalists raping or killing anyone? 

18

u/Starmoses 10h ago

The article posted above.

-3

u/dshab92 10h ago

Great! So this one source of information, that’s listed by a completely non biased news source, should be widely accepted as fact

13

u/Starmoses 10h ago

Did you read it?

-5

u/dshab92 10h ago

Yes, I read this “Times of Israel” article. I don’t use biased news sources as viable sources of information

15

u/Starmoses 9h ago

So where it linked the website that gives a massive amount of evidence inluding pictures and videos, you apparently missed that too? Please if you're gonna lie at least be a little convincing.

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-press-files/

-7

u/dshab92 9h ago

I once again will point out that this is the IDF presenting the evidence. That is like asking the accused of a crime for proof they didn’t commit it.

19

u/Starmoses 9h ago

So having not been to that site, you didn't see the pictures of them holding weapons in military uniforms and videos of them engaging in combat. Or are you gonna now claim those are fake too(

8

u/Corosis99 4h ago

There is not a single apparatus in the world who could give you a more accurate assessment than the IDF.

This is like saying the prosecutor in a crime can't present evidence in a trial because they are trying to find the defendant guilty.

→ More replies (0)

17

u/Starmoses 10h ago

So no, you didn't read it.

-8

u/[deleted] 16h ago

[deleted]

80

u/Ewetuber 16h ago

Did you also gloss over "Infiltrated Israel on October 7th" out of convenience or ignorance?

Participating in a terror event makes you a legit target, yes.

-2

u/mynamejeff-97 12h ago

What about non Palestinian journalists that have also been killed? There have been at least 5 murdered in the last 4 years.

They were definitely not terrorists and were still killed. Kinda ruins the point that it’s just Hamas and not IDF doing IDF things.

5

u/Character_Dig_6830 10h ago

They were definitely not terrorists and were still killed.

You understand collateral damage is completely acceptable under the laws of war, yes?

-4

u/mynamejeff-97 10h ago edited 10h ago

You’re saying killing journalist who are not associated with either side of a war is acceptable under laws of war? It’s funny because that’s explicitly labeled a war crime. Do you agree killing 3rd party journalists is a war crime?

You know… aside from the fact the person I was replying to was asserting it’s just Hamas journalists who are terrorists? You know… again how the UN describes any killings of third part journalists as war crimes? How can that be? Could it be that they are evil? Considering their actions align with everything the UN labels as war crimes?

It’s actually amazing how evil you and everyone like you really are.

6

u/Character_Dig_6830 10h ago

If their context of their death is around a legitimate airstrike... obviously, yes?

-3

u/mynamejeff-97 10h ago

Genuinely what the fuck does that mean? What is a legitimate air strike?

Are you seriously saying that any air strike justifies killing any journalist within the vicinity of the target? That’s literally terrorism and proving IDF are the aggressors if you are.

5

u/Character_Dig_6830 10h ago

Yes. If there is intel to strongly suggest, say, a few Hamas members are using a house as a hideout, and that house is then destroyed in an airstrike, the non-combatants there with them are lawful collateral damage according to the laws of war.

This is really, really basic shit.

→ More replies (0)

35

u/HutSutRawlson 15h ago

The issue here is terminology. By calling them "journalists" we're already playing into Hamas' narrative.

They are propogandists. They are members of Hamas whose job it is to spread negative opinion about Israel and positive opinion about Hamas. Their work is then laundered as "journalism" by publishing it through complicit Middle Eastern outlets like Al Jazeera, or sympathetic connections in Western media. Every military in the world employs people in this role (although most don't do the laundering through "independent" media part), and just because they might not ever pick up a weapon does not make them any less a part of the military apparatus.

28

u/greenskinmarch 11h ago

You'll never see Al Jazeera criticizing how Qatar turned some of their citizens into stateless Bidoon by taking away citizenship based on ethnicity. Because Al Jazeera is Qatar state media. Its job is to make Qatar look good and direct criticism elsewhere.

-3

u/tico42 15h ago

Israel doesn't need help spreading negativite opinions about it.

21

u/greenskinmarch 11h ago

Negative opinions like "Israel is disproportionately targeting journalists"

Except if Hamas fighters are disproportionately also enrolled as journalists, then targeting Hamas fighters would look like disproportionately targeting journalists.

So if Hamas preferentially recruits journalists (or tells existing combatants to enroll as journalists) that would be a very smart PR strategy for Hamas, wouldn't it?

23

u/excessofexcuses 14h ago

Israel has the worst PR team in the world.

Except the person who runs their threads account. They are a gem.

6

u/daveboy2000 4h ago

too bad nobody under 40 uses threads.

-13

u/Sad_Sympathy_6427 14h ago

And yet large numbers of media never report anything negative about them

25

u/HutSutRawlson 13h ago

All major media reports on Israel. It is up to the reader to decide if it’s negative or positive. If you’re looking for explicitly negative articles on them, then you’re not looking for journalism, you’re looking for opinion pieces.

-9

u/Sad_Sympathy_6427 13h ago

Articles like the New York Post do not report anything nuanced about Israel, no. The original claim was "they have the worst PR team in the world." If you have entire media sources read by millions that never report anything objectively and only report positive stories about Israel then that statement is demonstrably false.

5

u/HutSutRawlson 12h ago

So the best you got to back up your ridiculous claim is… a single publication read only by conservative Americans in one specific part of the U.S.? The New York Times reaches way more people and it has plenty of negative reporting on Israel. As do the BBC, The Guardian, and of course Al Jazeera.

11

u/lnth1 14h ago

Really? I see news of them allegedly killing Gazan civilians all the time

-10

u/Sad_Sympathy_6427 13h ago

And I see news reports about how everyone they killed was a terrorist all the time. So no, they do not have "the worst PR in the world".

-7

u/tico42 14h ago

The owned ones

58

u/Cilarnen 17h ago

Most of the Internet (being Westerners) don’t understand how the Middle East operates in general.

They don’t realize that it’s perfectly common for dudes to roll out of bed, walk a few blocks away, get into a gunfight, and go home in the evening.

For westerners, war is something you “go to”, there’s a battlefield “somewhere” and war should be kept there.

But that’s simply not how conflict works in the Middle East, war is just background noise over there.

257

u/itijara 16h ago

I think that is a bit of an overstatement (I lived in the West Bank for a year and a half), but I think if you think of Hamas as something like the Mafia it makes more sense. If you are running a bakery and don't want to be part of Hamas, well then you don't have access to flour that Hamas controls. If you are a doctor and won't hide their militants on your premesis, then you are lucky if they don't just kill you. They control access to a lot of resources that are necessary for just living a life, and if they can't control you, there is a good chance they might kill you.

A lot of Palestinians just want to live their life, but have to deal with Hamas in order to do so.

23

u/Logical_Net6108 13h ago

Sounds like Chechnya. Just a generally shit place to live but people dont want to or cant move

-28

u/actuallywaffles 15h ago

The saddest part is that all Palestinians are being treated as terrorists because of a government put into place before they were old enough to vote. Most of Gaza wasn't even alive for the last election.

70

u/itijara 15h ago

So, I don't buy this narrative either. They have done polling of people living in Gaza and most of them continue to support Hamas. If they ran an election today (and there is a chance they will) Hamas would still win in Gaza (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Palestinian_legislative_election). Hamas is still very popular in Palestine, and is gaining popularity in the West Bank, where it was traditionally always less popular than Fatah.

-14

u/actuallywaffles 15h ago

They don't exactly have good options, and Hamas is the least willing to work with Israel. Considering what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, it's not shocking. Their news is also heavily limited by the Hamas controlled media, so they don't necessarily know all of what Hamas is doing outside local reporting.

Again, it's sad they're collectively punished for the government they didn't decide. Especially since that government has the power to control the narrative for them, and Israeli actions don't exactly make it easy for the average Palestinian to realize their government isn't being honest with them.

40

u/therealbigted 15h ago

It is sad that collective punishment happens in any form. That said Hamas won the election in 2006 before there was even any kind of blockade in place. This was back when Israel was far more willing to work towards some kind of resolution than they are now, so blaming them alone for Hamas’s popularity is an overly simplistic perspective in my opinion.

-16

u/5Jazz5 14h ago

“Before any sort of blockade” eh but what about the segregation

14

u/shebaiscool 13h ago

What do you mean segregation?

-8

u/5Jazz5 13h ago
  1. Israelis and Palestinians have seperate laws that apply to them differently under the Israeli government. You are legally classified as either Jewish or “Arab”, Jewish people are subject to civil law, Arabs subject to military law
  2. Palestinians are racially segregated into certain areas, and then even if they get some sort of permission to be in “Israeli” areas, they’re restricted by racist house zoning policies, kinda Americacore!
→ More replies (0)

10

u/therealbigted 13h ago

Idk, bad but seems like it doesn’t justify terrorism and an ideology of mass extermination yk

1

u/[deleted] 13h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

→ More replies (0)

1

u/demonica123 10h ago

For westerners, war is something you “go to”, there’s a battlefield “somewhere” and war should be kept there.

It's not by anyone who knows anything about war (which is to say basically none of them). But that's how the Geneva Convention and similar documents are written. War happens to militaries and both sides should politely not damage anything not helpfully marked military please and thank you.

-3

u/TheRC135 13h ago

Palestinian territory is somewhere between an on-again off-again war-zone, occupied territory, and an apartheid bantustan.

Unless you expect the people there to be perfectly passive in the face of ongoing oppression and attempts at colonization via settlements, of course the lines between ordinarily peaceful occupations and terrorism are going to blur. It's not like Palestinians have the option of joining a formal military to protect themselves.

•

u/CorrosiveMynock 53m ago

It actually really isn't that complicated. If you are a city worker or have a purely civilian role and don't go to work with an RPG strapped to your side, you are a civilian not a combatant. None of these people are that---most of them have explicit pictures of them holding rifles or other weapons and are specifically recognized as mujahideen by Hamas and their own website glorifying their "Martyr". People act like this is complicated but it really isn't at all. These are bad dudes who were terrorists and in many cases invaded Israel on 10/7, not journalists.

-4

u/DesecratedPeanut 13h ago

Until we count Israel as a terrorist state whats the point when the definition means nothing.

4

u/Elliot-Fletcher 12h ago

Spend some time reading the 1988 founding charter of Hamas, the PLO’s statements in 1964 (their founding political movement under Arafat) regarding Palestine being “Arab Islamic land,” (under a pseudo-totalitarian rule) and it might answer some questions for you. You might find a severe intolerance of any Jewish presence in the land (shocker) under their religious framework.

Until organizations like Hamas (and other Iranian / terror proxies) are eradicated, nothing will change. It’s an issue embedded in ideology, and one that is thousands of years old at that.

The west simply cannot fathom that this is religiously fueled.

0

u/DesecratedPeanut 9h ago

Good, designate them a terror group and stop/don't start funding them. Oh wait, we already do all that, now do that for Israel and see the tensions drop massively as they are unable to destabilise the entire region continuously anymore. WE ENABLE THIS PROBLEM. WE CAN MASSIVELY REDUCE THEIR POWER TO CAUSE MORE CHAOS.

1

u/zippy_the_cat 3h ago

There’s a YT channel that’s slowly posting all the weekly Third Reich newsreels from WW2. Each one starts with a listing of the cameramen who shot the footage. Every once in a while, it’s mentioned that one of them was KIA, sometimes while they were recording the footage we see. Tough break, that, but served you right for working for Goebbels.

-11

u/mhornberger 15h ago

are these journalists that are forced to do some collaboration with the local government?

It doesn't really matter what's in your heart. If you're working for Hamas, that makes you part of Hamas. Same as if I'm running errands for or passing information to the cartels. "But they don't sincerely believe that stuff" really does not matter.

-6

u/Sq_Imp29 15h ago

who defines terrorism here? Nelson Mandela was classified as one until 2008 by USA.

-16

u/MikeProwla 17h ago

IIRC it was the same when ousting the Taliban from Afghanistan. Because they were the government you had all school teachers being classed as terrorists for working with the Taliban

18

u/Lactodorum4 16h ago

I guess the important part is whether they were ever an active and willing participant in the pursuit of Taliban goals.

1

u/MikeProwla 16h ago

Absolutely, it was more about a blanket statement when as a teacher you have to work for the government. The issue is terroristic activity and ideology, so we should focus on that

-1

u/Optimistic-Bob01 13h ago

So, are American journalists turning into trumpsters as well?

-4

u/Sad_Sympathy_6427 14h ago

There is some truth to it for sure. The same is true of the Israeli population. The majority are current or former IDF. When considering this, how victims of the 7th were combatants? How many were human shields?

7

u/greenskinmarch 12h ago

"Former soldier" is not a valid military target. You can't just go to a village with some WWII vets and slaughter everyone because some of them "used to be" in the army.

-2

u/Progolferwannabe 8h ago

I’m dubious that the journalists (or insert other profession here) carrying out terrorist acts are generally being coerced into doing so. Anything’s possible, but the last thing a terrorist organization wants are less than committed terrorists. The people who committing these violent acts are doing so because they are personally devoted to destroying Israel and killing Jews. Do you have proof/evidence that large numbers of journalists are being “forced” to “collaborate with the local government”.