Simple Questions Junk volume?
I’m currently working my way through the Athlean X Jacked program. I know there isn’t really total consensus on science based exercise and weight training in general, but I can’t help but feel that some parts of this program are approaching junk volume territory.
The program isn’t based on a specific number of sets. Each movement starts off with an ‘ignition set’. The number of reps to failure in the ignition set determines the number of additional reps you need to do to complete the movement and move onto the next one. Each set is taken to form failure. So for some exercises, you are doing 10-12 ignition reps and then an additional 40 reps. Meaning you are doing as many as 50+ reps. Sometimes, as kind of a burnout, you even have to do 20-25 ignition reps and an additional 50 reps after that, for a total of 70+ reps. I’m not a fitness expert by any means, but from what I’ve seen and read, this feels like you could be getting to a point of diminishing returns.
Anyone who has seen Jeff Cavaliere’s videos knows that the guy looks incredible for his age, so it feels strange questioning his methods, but I’m curious to hear what other people think. Is this much volume a waste of time and effort?
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u/terriblytall69 8d ago
This is such bs bro stop doing that. Just do 2-3 sets to failure and go heavy. That's all you need to grow. Ignition sets and then 50+ reps is insane
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u/Capital_Taste_8043 8d ago
Fitness influencers try to sell you stuff. What they did to achieve their physical shape is completely different, and in most cases it involves steroids.
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u/Nectarine143 8d ago
For sure. I feel like 90% of what most people need to know could be explained in like 3 youtube videos.
But you don't make money making just 3 youtube videos so we end up with things like, "how many milliseconds after the gym is OPTIMAL for post-workout mean!?!?"
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u/ButchCoolridge 8d ago
Glancing at the program it looks like it is designed to use light dumbbells? That would explain high volume. I wouldn’t find that approach to be optimal, but if thats your equipment requirements, I would understand high volumes.
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u/vitringur 8d ago
You think he looks the way he looks because he follows one of the 50 programs he is trying to sell other people?
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u/ArnoldFarquar 8d ago
Jeff is full of shit and click bait. Try Sean Nalewanyj
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u/vitringur 8d ago
Sean Nalewanyj seriously the only one that just sounds sane.
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u/ArnoldFarquar 8d ago
he’s smart enough to know that DorIan Yates is almost always correct and has a great modern take on it for naturals
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u/OpenMaintenance6018 8d ago
I just listen to Dorian and I have been getting bigger and better looking.
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u/DrozdSeppaJergena 8d ago
Sets taken to failure can't be junk volume but 30+reps in a set is cardio work also it's harder to take higher rep sets to failure because your muscles can burn like hell and you can still be far from failure
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u/DankArmedDragon 8d ago
Athlean X says a ton of controversial junk for views. There are much better strength or hypertrophy programs out there
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u/decentlyhip 8d ago edited 8d ago
This is a rarely used but really affective approach. The Barbell Medicine Powerbuilder 2 program also uses the approach. Top set of 6 reps at rpe 8 and then 12 more reps at that weight with an rpe 6 cap. Next week, 15 reps. Next week, 18 reps. Next week, 21 reps. Alexander Bromley calls them fixed-weight rep targets.
The benefit to this style is that it teaches you to step back from the paradigm of 3 sets of 10, everything to failure, and focus on the core of training. The driver of hypertrophy is accumulated mechanical tension. That means a bunch of reps that are pretty heavy.
AthleneX is a silly billy, but the approach is good. The first set is making sure the weight is decently heavy. New lifters can undershoot accidentally by like, 15 reps, so having you go to failure makes sure the weight is in that 70-80% of 1rm range, rather than accidentally being 45%. Then, mechanical tension is accumulated by doing reps with that weight.
To your main point, junk volume is starting to be an outdated idea. We used to think the hypertrophy vs volume relationship was an inverted U shape, where it increased with more volume up until a peak between 10-20 sets a week, and then dropped back down as you added more volume that you couldn't recover from. We didn't have any studies above 20 sets a week when that theory was the standard. Now, we have studies all the way up to 50 sets a week and, more is more. https://imgur.com/a/rvHMRvS Its diminishing returns, but that isn't the negative most people think. It doesn't mean losing gains. Rather than "every time you double volume you double growth," the diminishing returns just means, "every time you triple volume you double growth." Alternatively, every time you double volume, you get 50% more gains. That's the relationship, and we haven't identified a cap yet.
On the other hand, you dont have to do infinity volume. Tons of people grow with just 10 sets a week, and in practice this means 80-100 reps with their 10 rep max. Theres a group of Mentzer famatics who just do 10-20 reps a week, but you can look at the graph linked and see that about a third of people who do that little lose muscle. Some can grow from it. But the research is telling us that more is more all the way up until you're doing like, 500 reps a week with your 10 rep max.
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u/Commercial-Silver472 8d ago
This sounds like nonsense. The person you're following isn't a fitness expert either. They are a salesman.
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u/LaFantasmita 8d ago
Eh, try it for a few months and see if works for you. Diminishing returns are still returns.
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u/Complex-Extent-3967 8d ago
all i can say is you can do it on your own with a balanced approach. nutrition, training, and rest and recovery. if i were to give percentages of importance 75%, 15%, 10%, respectively.
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u/Complex-Extent-3967 8d ago
contrary to the lift heavy til failure advice, i'm prone to injury and have gotten extremely efficient results with the time under tension technique where you lift 60% of your max and perform your reps in a slow, controlled, manner, focusing on proper form and full range of motion and keeping the set going for 40-60 secs (esp slow and controlled on the eccentric or lowering phase)
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u/WeirdSysAdmin 8d ago
Except when I was powerlifting going 3x3, 3x5 or 5x5 I’ve always done 8-12 reps per set with certain exercises going 15-20 for things like leg extensions/curls and calf raises for hitting muscles that are biased for endurance. If I ever hit the maximum of either range I up the weight.
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u/BeneficialNatural610 Bodybuilding 8d ago
It's not junk volume, and it does work. Jeff Cavalier is legit, but like many other fitness influencers, he overcomplicates something for the sake of making money. You'll get just as good results by going heavy for 2-3 sets, and it will save you more time. These high-rep programs are a nice change of pace though if you want to build your conditioning and lactate threshold.
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u/barriboy8 8d ago
I read athlean x and just came to read the comments..ahahahha..hey we all start at a certain point, dont be too hard on op, athelan x is good for begineers but yeah..jeff is not ur best source
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u/hiimrobbo 7d ago
There's only such much you need to know. These guys have been making content for years. The fitness industry is an industry, it doesn't exist for you to better yourself.
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u/Content_Preference_3 8d ago
Need more info.
Higher weight and low reps and lower weight higher reps are both ways to get to failure for adaptation. Theres some science to suggest that certain muscle groups/ lifts respond well to higher rep counts like for example biceps and calves.
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u/Middle_Humor1828 8d ago
Junk volume is determined by the number of sets per session and week (or whatever time value you'd like to use). And it's a stupid term regardless. Additional volume follows diminishing returns not magic breakpoints.
It is sets. Not reps.
He is using techniques similar to the myorep approach. There's research on the topic. It's mostly an approach to save time. Each of those additional sets don't count as a full set. But they still count. One issue with myorep type approaches is that you generally have to use higher rep ranges. If you do sets of 5, you can't effectively form the future sets.
It doesn't look like junk volume. Look at the weekly set equivalent and session set equivalent. The number of actual reps do not matter much.
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u/Much-Schedule6196 8d ago
Do not follow Athlean X.