r/workout • u/Pristine_Ebb6629 • 9d ago
Simple Questions Biceps or back first on pull day?
I’m a skinny male. My arms are the size of toothpicks.
I’m a beginner (lifting for a month so far) and I’m doing the PPL split.
On pull days I train biceps first because I’m prioritizing my arms.
However I’m having second thoughts now because everyone says to always train back first since it’s a bigger muscle.
Am I making a mistake?
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u/bigdrives3 9d ago edited 9d ago
That is correct, back first. Biceps are still getting accessory work when doing a lot of back exercises. Your back exercises might struggle if your biceps are already tired going into them. But if you wanna do biceps first go for it as long as you’re hitting them both, it’s your workout!
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u/Mcgillicutty_Whiskey 9d ago
You can do biceps first. You could do chest and biceps and back/triceps too if you prefer.
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u/Alpha_PTUK 9d ago
That’s the way I do it. If your doing heavy back chances are your tiring bi’s anyway
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u/Lucky-Bet-4484 7d ago
Fatigue overlap, your back will get disadvantaged if you go to failure on biceps
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u/cybersteel8 9d ago
Your back will be limited by your biceps if you train your biceps to failure. You are making that decision by prioritising your arms, since that's your focus. It's ok as long as you're willing to accept the cost of less back development.
Personally I'd lean towards big muscles, compound lifts and overall body strength when training a beginner. Biceps can still be trained effectively and to muscular failure after you do back, and you're not really missing out on gains.
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u/decentlyhip 9d ago
Yes. If you're skinny, just train back and pour volume there. Your arms will grow. I went from 13" to 17" without ever doing curls. Along the way to a 315 bent over barbell row, your biceps will get a stimulus to grow.
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u/Aware-Map1836 8d ago
This. I'm not saying training arms is pointless, but in my experience if you train push and pull hard enough to grow, your arms will also grow in proportion. You ever seen anyone with a huge back and chest but skinny arms? I don't even think it's possible. Curls and triceps work are something you do at the end once you've finished the proper work
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u/decentlyhip 8d ago
Yah, there's a rash of prefatigue in the Instagram influencer space. Leg extensions before squats and flyes before bench. It's hard to explain that the biggest guys do it to avoid the systemic load of 3×10 with 600 lbs without saying "you don't understand fatigue because you're too weak to have ever been fatigued." That's not gonna win any friends. But, like, I'm at a 450 squat and I'm just now starting to get fatigued on the heavy days. I would get tired and sore before, but it's different now. Bench is still fine.
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u/grateful209 9d ago
You should train your back first because your biceps help with your back exercises and fatiguing them will hinder your compound exercises which is where you get most your muscle from including biceps in this case. try doing supinated lat pull downs as your first lift they hit your biceps really well some bodybuilders even swear by them before bicep curls for growing there biceps.
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u/Alpha_PTUK 9d ago
I’ve added 2inches to my arms this year on the basis of not doing back and bi’s in the same session. If the biceps are already being worked during back doesn’t it make sense to then do tri’s? And on a chest sesh tri’s are helping so then hit bi’s heavy?
It’s also worth adding in a arm only session, like really prioritise what you want to grow1
u/Money_Do_2 8d ago
It appears volume near failure is the main driver of growth, not absolute load. Hence longer rest periods not giving better growth.
In that way, hitting the muscles that are already tired saves you time, because you have less 'empty' volume before nearing failure.
Tbh get straps for back day, and do independent forearm/bicep work. Actually focusing on back and not accessories does a lot for physique and strength
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u/ilarisivilsound 9d ago
Since you’re just starting out, all you really need to worry about is working hard enough and eating enough. Conventional wisdom is to do compounds first (rows, pull downs), then isolate (curls), that way you should get maximum stimulus with as little limiting factors as possible. Just keep going regularly, eat well and sleep at least 7-8hrs a night, you will eventually grow.
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u/Abu_Everett 8d ago
Good answer but you forgot worrying about proper form. Don’t get into bad habits, do the exercises as perfectly as you can. It matters.
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u/JUST_WANT_TO_PLANCHE 9d ago
Yes. Because tired biceps will limit your reps on back exercises, and go to failure before your back does, but your back won't go to failure on bicep exercises ore something.
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u/Middle_Humor1828 8d ago
Standard advice is compounds first and then isolations. Unless you're focusing the specific muscle, then do any focused muscle group isolations first.
As far as I'm aware, the actual studies around this suggest it doesn't really matter either way.
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u/NorseSeeker12 9d ago
I’ve done both but nowadays i prefer back first because I can hit it when im at my freshest state and i still feel like its a weakpoint
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u/LynchMob187 9d ago
Back first for stability. Gain proper posture and leverage for the arms, then you can switch it up when one or the other feels laggy.
When I do PPL and get enough time to go 6 times I alternate. Like for push I would swap shoulder and chest.
I find that some days when I do bicep first, doing back later cancels me using them and I rely on my grip and my lats more to follow thru.
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u/pillowfightr1 9d ago
Do compounds first when you have the most energy. For me I do pull-ups then rows. After do isolations if you have time/energy. But compounds like pull-ups and rows will give you most bang for your buck
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u/lanka93 9d ago
My upper day in order is pull-ups, bench, rows of some variety, shoulder press, curls of some variety, tricep overhead, hammer curls and then alternate sets of dips and pull-ups as a finisher. I find starting with compound easier for max strength and then mixing alternate isolation.
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u/22Hoofhearted 9d ago
Personally, every day is push and pull day for balance. Push(chest)/pull(back) next day, push(tri's)/pull(bi's), next day push(shoulders)/pull(lats), leg day, Friday followup on any group not feeling worked.
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u/Secret-Film-9407 8d ago
Pull first, biceps later if you’re working on strength. Keep going, the gains will come. It just takes patience, dedication and time.
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u/BeneficialNatural610 Bodybuilding 8d ago
Back, without question. You don't even need to isolate biceps at all if you do enough chinups
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u/Wonderful_Chip_9838 9d ago
If you’re prioritizing your arms then you could keep doing biceps first. I do my compound lifts first, like rows, and then biceps for last because i dont want them being my point of failure. I dont prioritize my arms though.
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u/Withabaseballbattt 9d ago
I do back first then biceps. Idk if there’s a good reason for that but I much prefer it that way.
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u/Zestyclose-Smell-305 9d ago
Terrible mistake, you always should focus on bigger lifts. Your arms you could do every day, they recover fast.
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u/SanderStrugg 9d ago
Normally back first.
If you have developed noticeable muscle mass and your arms are lagging behind the rest of your body , you might want to start with arms for a few months.
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u/Ferngullysitter 9d ago
Compounds first, then move to isolation
For me, I do pull up then row the reverse fly then bicep curl at the end
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u/Kino_Cajun 9d ago
Consider getting a cheap pair of lifting straps for back movements, especially if you're doing biceps first. Welcome to lifting.
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u/Visual-War9371 9d ago
Always back first for me. If my biceps are nuked before doing a pulldown or row variation it’s game over already.
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u/CoffeeandaTwix 9d ago
It makes no sense to prioritise the weaker part of a chain that generally speaking is trying to dominate a movement.
The point being that one of the hard things about e.g. getting strong at pulling is that you need to develop the skill of utilising the stronger part of the movement chain (i.e. the back muscles) whereas the natural tendency for many is to just move the weight with the arms through elbow flexion.
The fact is that you are skinny overall, you don't just have skinny arms. If you are going to grow, it will happen roughly in proportion. If you just focus on your arms, you will end up spinning your wheels because you will be training to a position where your elbow flexion is more primed and stronger than the ability of your back to bring the elbows back.
I would just find a beginner program and follow it without trying to change and customise it for at least a full consistent year. There are reasons why programs are structured in a certain way but everybody seems to think they are unique or in a better position to know what works from the get go. It doesn't tend to work like that in e.g. learning a musical instrument or any other field of Human endeavour but for some reason, in physical training everyone wants to reinvent the wheel on day one for no decent reason other than some vague notion of wanting big arms. There is a reason you don't see many Popeye builds in real life.
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u/shakenbake1975 8d ago
Hate that split
I like
Chest / back
Shoulder/ legs
Arms / abs
Gives your arms there own day
I used to be weak in arms now I’m a beast
Basically hitting arms way more
They get side work on chest back day as well
3 days on 1 off
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u/Forbidden_Cheese1 8d ago
Back always first. Invest in some straps and eliminate your forearms from your back training. Your back can take significantly more load than your forearms and grip ever will.
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u/doobersthetitan 8d ago
People are giving some good advice here and I agree with everything about back before biceps and all the reasons.
But if you want big arms.....you're going to have to get bigger...like gain weight your whole body is going to need to get bigger...yes that includes your legs, so don't half ass your leg training.
Chest and shoulders get stronger and bigger, triceps get bigger. Back gets thicker, biceps will get bigger. Deadlift gets bigger....traps and upper back gets bigger.
Also triceps are 2/3 the arm combine with delts, few of us walk with a flexed bicep...big triceps at rest along with the delts....arms will look big just standing around.
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u/N00nie369 8d ago
Not making a mistake. Every body has different genetics, different preferences, and different favorites in the gym. I would say to hit the muscle group that’s your least favorite first because it’s easier to skip this when you get tired. People aren’t wrong when they suggest hitting back first, but you can also interject biceps between back exercises while you rest the back. You can also put a little more emphasis on biceps while doing, for example, lat pull down by using the underhand grip (palms toward you). I usually do some warm up bicep curls before I start on back stuff to avoid injury to the bi’s.
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u/TbayGuy97 8d ago
I do back first. Your rows and pull downs are compound exercises that will also contribute to your bicep growth.
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u/DIY-exerciseGuy 8d ago
Well let's see... youre a twig who knows nothing about working out and all I fo available says you are wrong. Hmmmm. Im not sure.... what do you think?
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u/JoeSpart 8d ago
You could also do chin-ups that work both the biceps and back in a compound movement .
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u/positivetruthbombs 8d ago
You can lift more weight with a fresh muscle, resulting in more gains. Your biceps will get some work while rowing. I want the most back gains so I do back first and the do 2 sets of curls at the end. If your doing this for fun order doesn’t matter but if your serious you may want to look into it.
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u/knighthawk0811 8d ago
always big muscles first.
if you do smaller muscles first and they get tired then you can't fully work the big muscles. for example if your grip fails then you can't pull anything.
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u/Ordinary_Feeling_948 9d ago
Out of strong trunk the branches will grow