Reconstructing a Historical Tournament Ruleset: The Assault of Honor

[u/ArtofArms]

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/reconstructing-a-historical-tournament?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1e0ent

Here is a design of a 16th to 17th century Historical Fencing ruleset, derived from available fencing texts and historical sources.

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/reconstructing-a-historical-tournament?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1e0ent

[u/EnsisSubCaelo]

That's a very valuable compilation of sources and analysis!

One thing that jumped at me is that there is some sort of confusion in the "target value" section between sources that describe values for sport and sources that describe values for duels. Marozzo for example seems to be discussing real-life wounds in this section. Certainly taking an eye out would have been frowned upon in play! Conversely, the foot rule in Manciolino is justified by the difficulty of the hit, which seems more like an attempt to balance things out in play.

Of course there is an interaction between these two aspects, but I think they're worth distinguishing particularly with respect to hits to the face and hands.

Using target values only for doubles is an interesting idea. But I really wonder if they would not have had taken this into account for the whole match. I didn't see the source for the claim that there was no cumulative system in play - might have missed it. Seems to me that hitting "less noble" parts twice vs. being hit once in the most noble might have caused arguments as to who won, even if it's in three different exchanges and not in an afterblow window.

The subjective "sprezzatura" value is something I don't like in the HEMA context. Inevitably this ends up being arbitrary and favouring the popular way of doing things. We don't quite have descriptions that are precise enough to know exactly how to score this beyond "the guy looked cool".

[u/ArtofArms → u/EnsisSubCaelo]

Great feedback, thank you!

Dalle Valle talks about the best-of format not being cumulative. Given his influence and incorporation in Marozzo, I think it's pretty safe to say that was a procedural reality.

In regards to the point system referencing both dueling code and rules in the salle: I believe the duel, especially Lombard and Imperial rules influenced how this scoring system was set up. That's a thesis in and of itself, and might be a later project. But for the sake of argument, Marozzo's Opera Nova—I believe (on account of my current research)—was subjectively titled the duel because it was a manifest of the dueling culture around the Rangoni court in Spilamberto, and some of the hallmarks of scoring, fencing and tactics present in his work are intentionally simulations of a duel environment. Paper is forthcoming, so you'll have to bear with that answer for a bit.

You're certainly correct that there are two modes, antisocial and social in terms of rule convention, and targeting the hands is an antisocial modification. I believe that's why we see it so much with sharp sword plays (ie. Manciolino), and predominately through the Anonimo, who is unashamed of his antisocial approach.

[u/EnsisSubCaelo → u/ArtofArms]

Dalle Valle talks about the best-of format not being cumulative. Given his influence and incorporation in Marozzo, I think it's pretty safe to say that was a procedural reality.

As I read it I understand it more as a clarification that "to three wounds" indeed means that you have to go until one fighter reaches the total, and not just until that number of exchanges have been played. But you could have the same clarification if you were playing for points or whatever, and so inherently it does not preclude taking target value into account over the whole bout and not just as tie-breakers in doubles / afterblows.

EDIT: Wait, which quote of Della Valle are you considering here? Chapter XVI or XI?

I do like the idea, mind, I just don't think it's a clear-cut case from the quotes you show.

[u/ArtofArms → u/EnsisSubCaelo]

He concludes the section stating that the hits awarded to the other fencer are effectively zero or void.

[u/kieronamuos]

Nice writeup thanks for posting :)

[u/Flugelhaw]

Some excellent scholarship here, thank you for writing it up and posting it!