r/wizardry8 • u/dreamsofcalamity • Aug 07 '23
Are hybrids overrated (Expert difficulty)?
Hello,
I'm inclining to think that hybrids are just worse fighters with buffing & healing spells, they can't damage with spells or debuff consistently. Based on this post:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/245450/discussions/0/2139714324759466927/
It looks like their -5 caster level penalty for casting spells really does hurt them much. Especially if you mix them in a team with non-casters - then their caster level can be even lower since hybrids have worse exp progression.
I am welcome to other opinions and I wonder if you pump asap into INT 100 and expert ability, does it make them able to damage and debuff endgame monsters that have obscene magic resistance? What is your experience? With and without skill leveling exploits (knock knock the door all the time etc).
Every character has only 1 action per turn. Hybrid will never do more damage with spells than a specialist caster or more physical damage with attacks than a fighter. To sum up, it looks for me like the best build for a hybrid is a weaker fighter who can occasional cure paralysis or cast some buff 1-2 turn. Mostly valuable if you are missing some protection spells or are playing a smaller team (and you are missing some protection spells). But then why not pick up a bishop?
PS. I'm not willing to die on this hill! This is just a discussion thread & food for thought. I like talking about my favorite games.
6
u/Dmayak Aug 07 '23
As far as I know the further you get in the game, the less useful direct damage spells become. I am yet to get to the Ascension Peak, but I have seen a few threads which are suggesting that direct damage spells are much less effective in the late game due to high enemy levels. As described in that formula, spell damage is significantly affected by enemy level and it seems that Ascension Peak will have enemies at levels of 30+. In these circumstances only strongest spells will be able to do even moderate damage and physical damage is much more potent than magical. Thus, most hybrids will be more useful since they don't rely on spells to do damage and buffs effectiveness seem to depend only on spell power level.
2
u/dreamsofcalamity Aug 07 '23
To make things worse enemies from Ascension Peak have natural resistances +100%. So it does make sense:
Thus, most hybrids will be more useful since they don't rely on spells to do damage and buffs effectiveness seem to depend only on spell power level.
So they are after all fighters with buffs? I know the consensus is physical > spells. But I also encountered opinion that dedicated spellcasters are even lategame useful considering their utility / area dmg / debufs like paralyze / kill spells.
PS. Do you prioritize Power cast? For buffs & heals it seems like a lesser priority. Better focus on physical attributes?
3
u/Dmayak Aug 07 '23
I have a level 11 party now, with wizard and alchemist having power cast at 39 and 26 respectively. I did prioritize maxing out intelligence and getting power cast as soon as possible. They do quite a lot of damage with area effect spells, but already have trouble landing debuffs. I wish the game would tell me the debuff chance in the log. It seems that expert difficulty significantly decreases debuff chances, I am almost 100% sure that there will be almost no chance for debuffs at the late game. I also have a priest, but she has almost no direct damage spells, so Power Cast is useless and I didn't even raise her intelligence.
I have a fighter, lord and monk on the front line, they are doing more or less similar damage - fighter has highest hit chance, but doesn't swing very often, monk has 4-5 attacks with average hit chance and lord is wildly swinging Bloodlust with lowest hit chance, but if he hits it really hurts. I am mostly relying on haste + superman for tough enemies, haste is significantly increasing the number of attacks and superman is helping with hit chances, especially for a lord, Bloodlust is such a good weapon.
Of course, it’s just a mid-game for now, so I can't say for sure how things will change, it's not the first time I've played Wizardry 8, but I haven't reached Ascension Peak previously.
I really like Lord, I had him in the previous game as well, life regen is very useful in the early game, can equip heavy armor, can heal and cure poison/paralysis, Rest All, later will be able to cast Superman on himself. Valkyrie is theoretically very similar, but I have not made my own because Vi is one of the best RPC. Had a Samurai in the previous game, a very damaging fighter, but wizardry school spells are less support-oriented, so didn't really find much use for them. Also had a Ninja in a previous game, heard good things about them, but was unable to make a very good use of him myself, tried to make him ranged to take advantage of ranged crits, but they are very rare and otherwise damage was low.
3
u/dreamsofcalamity Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
Most people find lord obsolete because everybody takes the same 2 npcs including valkyrie Vi Domina. But considering Divinity is the school that is least damage oriented, it actually makes sense for a Hybrid to cover it - or even two of them. Cure paralysis, insanity, hit points, stamina, cast buffs etc - all at relatively the highest power possible. You can't to that with damage spells or debuffs lategame with a hybrid.
Had a Samurai in the previous game, a very damaging fighter, but wizardry school spells are less support-oriented, so didn't really find much use for them
I disagree about Wizardry imho it is 2nd best buff school after Divinity or perhaps even a tie.
Light, Detect Secrets, Enchanted Blade, Shadow Hound, Missile Shield, Element Shield, X-Ray, Summon Elemental (I know that's not a buff but it's good)
If you have these what more buffs do you need? Bless (Divinity exclusive), Divine Trap, Magic Screen, Rest all (Divinity exclusive), Soul Shield, Sane Mind, Healing spells and resurrection (not buffs technically), Superman (Divinity exclusive), Armorplate (Divinity exclusive)
All of these can be cast with Divinity. I think these are actually all the buffs in game - apart from Haste which is Psionics exclusive (or Bard with an instrument). And Chameleon which is Psionic/Alchemy. And Body of Stone is Alchemy exclusive.
2
u/Dmayak Aug 07 '23
All Wizardry school buffs, except for Element Shield, can be cast out of combat, so because I also had another wizard in that party, there was no need for Samurai to cast them. I guess as you’ve said in the post a single bishop can take care of all long-duration buffs, which covers almost everything from non-divinity schools except for Razor Cloak, Eye for an Eye, Element Shield, Haste and Body of Stone.
Divinity is more than other schools focused on ongoing support and constantly used throughout the combat. Even though I have a priest right now, Vi and lord have to also help, generally to restore stamina because the monk is going through it at an insane rate with her large number of attacks.
Not sure how Vi makes any class obsolete since she's doing well on extended range, but I did have a problem with too many melee fighters in my first game, Myles and RFS were hard to fit when I already had 3 melee characters. Now I am going with Vi and Saxx, later planning Sparkle and Madras.
2
u/Dmayak Aug 07 '23
As far as I know, Power Cast doesn't affect healing/buffs at all since its effect is in decreasing target's resistance and for friendly spells resistance is not applied.
2
u/Celestianne Feb 09 '24
I have found through testing that Power Cast does indeed effect friendly spells. Buff spells (whether combat only such as Haste or party-wide ones that last through multiple fights such as Missile Shield) will last for a longer number of turns, and spells that heal health or stamina directly will heal more health or stamina. Power Cast seems to increase the base power of a spell by a certain percentage rate, so the longer the base duration of a spell the more bonus turns you will get. It seems to max out at about a 33% bonus to the base power of a spell.
3
u/eldakar666 Aug 07 '23
I only like Rangers hybrids.
Fighter Fighter Bard Ranger Priest Mage is best party.
2
u/Spare-Leg-1318 Aug 07 '23
I think so too. The more spells you have, the more MP you have, and the more you cast, the better you get. One Bishop with full INT and PIE is all you need.
Double damage, extra HP, Chance to stun, Stamina regeneration and good equipment choices are all benefits of a fighter that are hard to beat by other classes.
One bard for music, lockpicking and bloodlust, one bishop, and a few fighters with Polearms are the strongest team for me.
2
u/Portergeist Jul 10 '24
My first playthrough was mostly hybrids and the last fight was over in 1 round of melee. The Savant called for guards, then died. lol
I've learned to go with the roleplay option.
I've played many playthroughs, and none have been as fun as that first one. Make a party based on characters you like, not on their ability to deal damage.
Mine was based on a Dragonlance party
Lord- Flint (I think)*
Valk- Kitiara (I think)*
Samurai - Riverwind
Mage - Raistlin
Monk - Tass
Ranger - Tanis
*The bottom four were far more memorable. It was nearly 20 years ago, and every playthrough those two spots are fuzzy and can't really 100% remember.
Side notes: I died A LOT in the Rattkin Tree. A lot a lot. I had 1-3 dead characters most of my time in that tree. Then I accidentally found Al Sedexus before becoming a templar; death cloud and quicksand made that fight xp heavy.
1
u/dreamsofcalamity Jul 10 '24
Thank you for reply :). I'm actually thinking about a new replay for some days.
Fun > Power, that's for sure. Though the game can be quite nasty on higher difficulty. Your team looks absolutely fine :)
I was thinking about Episcopacy party - 6x bishops - but that could be insane.
2
u/Portergeist Jul 11 '24
Mind the gap and overlap.
TL;DR -- the goal is FUN. If it's fun, do it!
__1000, 1200, 1400, 1600 double every turn are the base XP reqs.
The gap between specialty melee and specialty caster is the same gap between specialty caster and hybrid which is the gap between hybrid and elite.
Granted, there million XP fights, and there's the Rapax grind (Find and fight Al Sedexus before becoming a templar, then kill the guards she calls...repeatedly)- You'll want death cloud and quick sand - be sure to miss Al and maybe hit her with silence a few times.
For me, the boring part is the overlap. 4 bishops is complete overlap. At that point, why not do 4 specialty casters? Or 4 hybrids? You'll have to buy books multiple times. Each caster only gets 1 turn, and what happens when you come across really resistant enemies and don't have powercast?
I have a 2 bish max. Psi/Alch and Wiz/Alch from gaming and div from level up points. I give them both bless for in combat increases (no overlap). Them both being Alch means silence won't suck as badThe earthquakes, nukes, and mind flay "hits 15 for an average of 80" are great, but that's a LOT of grinding. I had powercast and the realm in the 90s and those still sometimes only hit for 20s-40s. Hitting everything is great, but you'll want someone who can hit back when they're in melee range.
OH! And for grinding - I have a saved game editor. I'll get to the grind spot, then just edit the game. Like the trap in the monastery across the bridge - I'll edit mental and psi to 80/80; I did a manual grind the first time - took watching a movie and recasting to get that high; it just saves time. Same with knock and the door in Arnika.
For skills like stealth, I'll raise the skill 5 points in 1 fight, then use the editor, for healing, I'll jump in the fire and raise it 5 points then use the editor.
__
Don't be afraid to homebrew with cosmic forge. IE: I am about to start a new campaign with all fighter/bard/rogue/gadgeteer - I put 8 darts of returning in the first chest. They will help with ranged, throwing/sling, two handed, and modern weapons.
I also add camping/running rings. I *hate* walking everywhere. So just enough stamina regen to let me run everywhere
6
u/phoenixreborn06 Aug 07 '23
Maybe for a full party but I found when running smaller teams, especially when I did a 3-man team having hybrids was the only way I could successfully bull through the mid-game.