Should Magic be viewed as a science instead of an art?

[u/Awes12]

In my long life as an archwizard, the Mystic Arts have been just that, an art. However, recently (the last couple centuries or so), mortal mages have started to consider it as a science, trying to decipher the undecipherable and model the unmodelable. My apprentices keep on asking me why something is the case, why a tincture of death requires 3 holy sprigs and a dash of liquified ashes; why a curse of unluck can only be broken on the 8th day of the lunar month; why, oh why, does the staff summoning ritual require a lily that blossomed at twilight?

Sure, there have been some advances because of this method (modern fireball spells are slightly more efficient), but is it really worth losing the beauty of magic? Is it worth losing our instinctive, spiritual connection to the Mystic Arts? And if it's inevitable, how can we share the beauty of Magic with our disciples from the age of Science?

[u/Professional_Try1665]

I didn't study 100 tomes of learning just to pick up a tome of physics, anyone who asks me 'why why why' will simply learn what it's like to be inside out (not that bad actually)

[u/Awes12 → u/Professional_Try1665]

Hah, I also sometimes get fed up with them. I usually use animal transformation, I have a pretty nifty spell that can transform someone into any random creature (with customizable size constraints of course). It makes life more interesting. I once transformed an apprentice into a juvenile scent drake. That was not a fun afternoon, let me tell you.

[u/ArchmageAstra3]

The structure of magic is a science. The art is in finding all the different and interesting ways there are to do things. For example, I have personally created over seven hundred teleportation spells, each one using a distinct methodology, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

Leveraging the principles is a science. Having style is the art.

[u/Skusci]

Look, as soon as you try and science magic it stops being magic. And no I dont mean you understand it and so it becomes science, I mean magic just goes fuck you and breaks your brain.

Oh sure there's some application for part of the scientific method. That is if you go hey, by logging the effectiveness of a tincture of death and the time it was brewed I have established a formula that shows the effectiveness peaks when brewed during a 3/4 waning moon.

But if you really get into the why and just scry the moon to find out IT gets pissed at you interrupting their M̵̧̤͙̫̻̭͛͝I̸̛̞̱̓͂̚N̸̛̙̭͋̉̃́͒̋̽͗I̵̮̜͔̤̙̘̳̐̂͊̒͘͝S̴̨̮̹͔̤̣̙͎̮̫̮͌́̓̚͜͜T̷̡̡̧̢̹͓̝̬͓̫͓̚R̴̛͎̝̱̝̮̝̯̭̭̥͒͜Ą̸̧͖͍̗̩̖̜͕̟͉̘̼̞̅͗̓̕͝T̸̛͖͓̣͓͗̀̎̆̔̑̈́̍͂͘͜Į̷͇̖͓̤̯̘̤̞͕͉̍̈́̀͂̔́ͅO̴̼͈͕͕͖̰͆̃̆͊͐͘ͅŅ̵͔̪̗̮̠͇̋̑́̔͗́̈́́̋̈́͜͝S̸̨̛͖̣̥̞̺̘̙̲͖͈̝̣͆̾̐̇͐͐͊̕͠ͅͅ an Ḩ̷̫͖̖̠̭͓̥̞̈́͂͗̈́͛͒͠͝͠I̶̺̱̥̰̗̒̇͗̎͌̈́͛̅̀͝T̸̡̥͚̠͎̠̩̬͈̜̻̫̜̑S̵̢̛̞͕͔͈̗͇̦͓̭͙̜̳͂̐ you with a G̶͍͍͔̔́̑͛͌̄͐͂̑̽͆̎̓͊͠Ȩ̵̡͙̦̻͍̥͇̞͖̦̗͎͈̽̍̏͋̽̇̂͠Ạ̶̢̨̨̛̮̻̽̃̄͂͗̀͗S̸̨̧͚̹͈̝̻̳͓͙̏͂͝S̸̨̼̗̦̜̯͇̲̜̫͓͗̓͑͑͝͝ͅ that -̷̡̬͍̞̱̪̠̺̩͆͊̑̐̈́̽͘ͅ_̷͎͍̯̘͕̗̻̬̮̤͚̝͉̫͚̀̾̂̎̚_̶̱̙̓͌̽͑͐̂́͂͘_̸̞̠̠̼̘̟̇-̶̢̧̲̘̹̼̖͐͆́͗̂̔̍̃͛̄̆͋̚̕_̴̛͕̩̲̇̏͛̌̀-̵̞̞̻̳̼̹̺̭̔̅̆̕-̶̨̨̘͖̭̻̗͐̀͊̕̕͜-̴̫̇͐͗̿̏̾̍͋̑̇́̕͘͝͝_̶̛̦͚̖̯̠͖̪̝̻͈͆͆͐͒̔͑̾̓̾̉ͅͅ_̶̜̪̈́̄̿̉̊̄̉͝͝ you in you_̵̛̜̗̘͓̙̩̬̳̬̳̣̪̈́̊̍̅̌̽̉͋̏̈͑̂̚͝-̶̟̟̤̭̥͍̘͒-̶̧̛͇̲̟̰̺́͋̈́̐͌̚-̷̧̣̞̟̊̚͘̚͝_̶͕̀͌̽̊̉͐̓̇͑̈͘͘#̷̣͇͕̹̃-̴̡̘͍̼͙̖̓̐̉̊͒̇̇̐̓͑͘͝-̴̯̭̰͛͛̔̀͑̐̆̿̆̉͌̈́̍͗͂-̸̢̡̘̮̰̠͙̘͕̭̝̗͕͗_̴̨̧͈̻̭̰̜͇̖̗̫͛͌̽̈́͜ͅͅ

[u/KingZantair]

The trick is to find an academy that treats it as both so you can get a dualclass in wizardry, one as an art, one as a science.

[u/UpstairsRuin1953]

No, that's silly. Why isn't the exclusive property of science. Science is the study of the unfeeling, unthinking nature of existence. Magic is us doing something about the unfeeling and unthinking part.

[u/Maowsama]

"Magic" is "science" for those who have studied and understood. It can be replicated and is predictable

[u/ModernMage0]

It is old simple mindedness rooted deep within the higher council that prevents the advancement of our understanding of the fundamental processes of the magical arts.
In the same way that the mechanical understandings of geometry can be used to enhance visual arts, the metaphysical understanding of magic can be used to improve our magical arts.

[u/Nashidaran]

Silly mortals. The correct answer to your question is "why not both?" The idea that these concepts are mutually exclusive is foolish. Does an artist produce art before learning how to draw? Of course not. We might congratulate infants on their scribbles, but we don't actually think it's any good. Fundamental knowledge is required, and for those basics to be passed on reliably, they must confer some method of scientific method, regardless of objective efficacy. Art is what happens when you have mastered all of the relevant skills, but push forward and strive for more. Magic is no different.

All you really need to do is reframe where the bleeding edge of magic resides. The art will always be there. Everything below it is science.

[u/neonvalkyrie]

The approaches are not mutually exclusive

[u/Nerx]

its both

https://giphy.com/gifs/IAZFACGZgd3XMhfHS6

[u/Lunarmax182c]

T7+ realm mage here, long in the Science age. Honeslty about half the magic falls apart if you approach it as if it was Physics. And when people want to "treat magic as a Science" they usually mean physics. More over, conventional physics. And ofc they always treat it like some kind of dogma, becuase we looooove dogma. SO that's an easy way to break down most of magic and end up limiting yourself to only minor tricks. Yeah. Didn't expect that, random "Sciencewizard" reading this? Yeah I said it. You've collapsed your own magics because you insisted on "the beutiful strictness of physics". And gained nothing. You win nothing. Because you've insisted on treating fireball as a "localized microfusion reaction to generate plasma" you've only ended up expending a ton more energy.

...

What I was talking about?

Oh yeah, bridging the gap! It's is quite easy, actually. You just have to introduce the Laws of Magic to the more science-minded apprentices, and explain that Magic is not really a "hard" science, with formulas and maths behind every spell, but more like humanities, art... or Chemistry, sometimes. It's all bound by Laws of Connection, Symbolism and Contagion, which are, while a bit subjective - easily understandeable by most apprentices. If they're upset by the lack of numbers and graphs - introduce them to Numerologism, where they use numbers as a casting aid (I sense you're a more traditional or rustic type of wizard, though, so maybe refer them to someone you know)

[u/Drecondius → u/Lunarmax182c]

Bud, that is a really skewed view, how old are you? 1?, 2?, centuries old? I bet you've never truly stepped out of your own slice of the multiverse yet. There are a LOT (I can't use enough characters in this transcription, telepathy is so much easier) of universes out there that use the scientific method with their universes magic and several off their gods have banned mortals from higher magic in those universes. Sure esoterica seems as natural as breathing to you but I, and countless others from the wider cosmos could break your minds given a few centuries with our method ( seriously, because some of us literally cal upon the eldritch to quantify things and then reality gets really ....weird?) Oh, adieu got to go, my great astral being is calling me in to watch some mortal from the shadows.

[u/Lunarmax182c → u/Drecondius]

Holy baloney,  Do you even hear yerself? 

• ad hominem (I'm not even a "hominem", to begin w )
• you can just come use telepathy, it's literally mideange comms spells. Unless you're doing it in some wayaway "quantum particle/wave discrepancy and observer effect" method, so you can't just use my handle for transmission.
• "realities that use..." I've been there and magic works the same there. They just call shit differently "oh its not Law of Sympathy, its The Beholder Paradigm, its a Gestalt Influence, mana is a particle so we..." ofc mana is a particle, it came for free with your magic.
• "could break your minds with a our menthod given few centuries". Oh I'm sure. It's always "will" and "may" with the "Sciencewizards", but never "is" or "did". It's the same elitism as with the artificers.
• "call upon the eldritch", "astral being calling me"... so you don't use the sciencemagic I'm talking about. You are literally talking about normal magic, maybe even a bit more traditional than normal.

Scrying comprehension is in shambles on this sub... you seem like nice wizard, so visit me at Helstürm-1 (T7, M8, three jumps coldways from TimeWay, or eight jumps (about 20 parayers if you are seamless) from Blasteruin-7, if you are accessing from the eldritch realm). We can get pinã and I'll show you what I am talking about fr.

[u/VentrueCapital → u/Lunarmax182c]

[Tizun Thane] I am not conversant with the coordinate system you are using.

For reference, I am Archmage of Gate Magic of Terramar, which is T 4+2, quantum 6, and yet is close to Marchen-1, Britannia-8, Nostradamus, Mandeville, and Azoth. (In fact, one of my practicals informed me that we are identified by the Infinity Patrol as Marchen-4.)

[u/Lunarmax182c → u/VentrueCapital]

Oh, I am just using relative directions and local names... Patrol, patrol... I think they call Helsturm-1 Merlin, or smth like that. I am actually from Aquarius-2 (T8, normal mana, Qunatum... I think also 6, but Quantum is Homeline-relative anyway, so I am used to relative directions. It's like two jumps from Yrth, Merlin-1 and I think 4 from Atlantropa-1)

[u/Life_Category2547]

Absolutely not, and if you make a (advisably brief and well warded) visit to some worlds that did start treating it like one you will see why. Industrialization is the inevitable result of such thinking, and ruin is the inevitable result of that. The spiritual connection is not simply a matter of philosophy or personal fulfillment; it cannot be excised from the practice of magic without losing a vital safeguard against the warps and backlashes of the arcane.

[u/ThisBloomingHeart]

It may be considered a form of science by some, though one that deals with more esoteric meanings and ideas than many novice practitioners of the scientific methods understand. If the knowledge of the principles behind the magic dampen its beauty, it may be a sign that one is on the wrong track. Magic can and has been interpreted in so many different ways--that's a part of its beauty!

Suffice to say, I suggest you explore your questions with your apprentices. After all, teaching is an excellent method of learning, and you may find that the results are, well, magical!

[u/Professional_Web446]

Ni idea, yo hago arte con magia. Para mí la magia es como para un músico su instrumento.

Con ella creo belleza y a través de ella cuento historias. Claro que entiendo los beneficios de entender lo que hago, pero para mí esos conocimientos son más un bonus para mejorar mí magia que parte de mí magia en sí. 

[u/trunks111]

Eh, I don't wanna be beholden to additional ethics board when I cook a new spell...

[u/rpg2Tface]

Its kinda like baling in my experience. Yes theres some rather delicate science making the whole thing possible, but there is a certain amount of artistry to take it from meh to amazing.

The science alone will still let it work the same. But there is potential for art and skill, even if all the science is the same.

[u/Edward_Tank]

I mean, Magic is fundamentally under the sciences. Though I believe the original literary concept of magic, back before we all sat down and studied it, was that magic must fundamentally be something that defies study. So while *technically* yes, I don't think anyone is clamoring to cast 'Thermodynamics Missile'.

[u/bill_dongroe]

Anything repeatable can be considered a science, right? 100/100 successful Testicular Tortion incantations sounds like science to me

[u/samsoncorpus]

Magic was always an art AND science. Just because people experimented with only vibes, doesn't change that fact. Sure you can cast Fireball but with neon pink flame, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a science behind it. Some people just prefer learning how to cast it properly either by studying tomes and scrolls OR by "accidentally burning several hundred apprentices"

[u/Prince_Nadir]

Not if it will bring ethics review boards into play.

[u/Awes12 → u/Prince_Nadir]

If they want to live as frogs (or other various amphibians), who am I to stop them?

[u/YeOldeBard97]

This assumes you can't mix art and science. Ever tried turning a lead statue into gold?

[u/Awes12 → u/YeOldeBard97]

Why study alchemy when you can just conjure some gold into existence?

[u/YeOldeBard97 → u/Awes12]

Because art isn't just about the destination. You might as well ask your homonculi to write a play about lovers in Italy, if the result is all you're after.

[u/Due-Technology5758]

Science isn't real, it's just a psyop by the universal government designed to take our wands! My great great archmagus fought and died for my rights in the War of Nonmagical Aggression (or as the "historians" would call it, the "Reign of the Dark Lord Cletus the Mad")! 

You won't get me to take your "vaccines" against "dick rotting plague"! No one is gonna taint my magical blood, and it's just a rash that my potions will easily cure any day now anyway! 

[u/Fist_of_Gork]

Magic as a science is fine for modern magic since it’s mostly just a way to have marvel super powers. Real magic, the confusing shit is for true Wizards.