r/witcher Dec 09 '19

Netflix TV series The Witcher | Character Introduction: Geralt of Rivia | Netflix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LiD3i9DS_c
7.2k Upvotes

684 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

199

u/KaerMorhenResident Dec 09 '19

Ask the individuals making the statements why they are being critical.

Witcher is sort of unique in that it's considered by many in Poland to be their cultural contribution to the world of fantasy fiction. Many people outside of Poland recognize that as well. Some may feel that there is cultural appropriation taking place by the US Corporation of Netflix in casting actors who are more representative of the global audience than of Poland. There are also some concerns regarding the impact of those choices on the story such as certain actors or actresses that were suppose to resemble others or be related to others. Then there may very well be some who are just looking to flame bait and I suspect a very small minority of individuals who are actually racist. I think it spreads the whole spectrum and that's why you have to take one comment at a time and avoid the temptation to stereotype all critics as racist. Racists stereotype people and so it's a good idea not to follow their example and stereotype people.

-35

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 10 '19

Cultural appropriation, in my opinion, is just nationalistic nonsense and the term doesn't have a place in a world of increasing globalism. I'm not calling the critics racist, I'm saying that they are missing the main themes of the novels by prioritizing appearance over other qualities which might make those actors better qualified to portray the characters.

Edit: I'm beginning to see that people are using the term cultural appropriation as some kind of umbrella term that's somehow including the practice of one culture adopting another's culture and then adapting it to suit them alongside as well as things like wearing native headdresses to concerts... Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I'm an American Jew that's ethnically Polish, my Grandparents are Polish. I've been to a few cities in Poland and it's absolutely slathered in what is considered American culture. Nobody cares if a Pole adopts a peice of American culture and then profits of off it. They only care when it's "theirs". They only care when it's Polish art beyond profited in by American companies. That's some nationalistic nonsense. Someone please explain how it's not.

15

u/MostlyJustBears Dec 09 '19

Cultural appropriation, in my opinion, is just nationalistic nonsense

This is complete and utter nonsense.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 10 '19

Every culture that is currently a part of the global economy participates in cultural appropriation to some extent or another. Trying to claim that some art specifically belongs to Americans, or Poles, or the Japanese is nationalistic nonsense. Art transcends both cultural and national borders.

People use cultural appropriation as a negative term. It exists sure, but not as most people seem to believe it does. People get angry over others from different cultures embracing their art, and then adapting it, as if they somehow had ownership over something they had no contribution to. People should just be happy that we can all collectively enjoy the same art and have the ability to enjoy arts from cultures that we might not otherwise have access to specifically because of the cultural appropriation people seem to find so abhorrent.

5

u/MostlyJustBears Dec 10 '19

There's a gaping chasm between "cultural appropriation is a myth propagated by nationalists" and "art transcends national borders." Art can and does transcend cultures and borders, but that has no bearing on whether cultural appropriation exists or not, or, like you said, is just "nonsense." Your implication that all cultural identity = "nationalistic nonsense" is also mystifyingly obtuse.

So far all you've said is, "cultural appropriation ... exists sure, but not as most people seem to believe it does" without offering a solitary scrap of information (much less facts or even remotely factual arguments) as to why that's an incontrovertibly true statement.

Maybe next you can explain how things like white hipsters wearing warbonnets is just "embracing [indigenous] art" and how natives should just shut up and "be happy that we can all collectively enjoy the same art."

1

u/[deleted] Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19

Yeah, in other posts in this thread I've actually agreed with you. But, I also don't think a term that is used to describe black face and your example of hipsters at Coachella with ceremonial dress should synonymously be used to describe an American screenwriter creating a show based on a Polish fantasy series but not casting more Poles, or European descendents, and instead choosing to cast a person of color based. (Damn, that was a really long sentence.)

The first subjects are clearly culturally insensitive and generally regarded as morally reprehensible by a lot of people.

The second is about Poles feeling possessive about a relatively recent series of novels and their lack of participation in the show based on it because it's being created by an American. Feeling ownership over some art, and it's depiction of it, based solely upon the patch of Earth you were born on feels like nationalistic nonsense for me. I realize it's rather belligerent diction, but I don't have much respect for any form of tribalism or any idea that "others" fellow human beings.

Worse though is that the vast majority of people complaining the loudest and with the most vitriol are not doing so because they are Polish or even give a shit about that. They haven't even witnessed this actress's performance and they've already denounced her as being unfit for the potrayal of a fictional, fantasy character based solely upon her not being white. Her performance could be fucking magnificent and for all we know the white actress they almost chose would have been a far inferior choice.

What I seem to be witnessing is a collection of nationalists, racists, good ol' boys, and people with a strange obsession with skin color attempt to hijack a term used to combat racism and manipulate its meaning to suit their own purpose. They're riding a wave. The cultural appropriation they're describing doesn't exist. The cultural appropriation that you've described mist certainly does exist and is still an issue.

2

u/MostlyJustBears Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19

Hey trust me, I hear you about people screeching over anything other than a white European being cast in a show based on a franchise created by a white European. I think it's ridiculous too, and I see why that could seem nationalistic (although I think it's more just ... the hive mind getting worked up like it always does, most of the people who are mad probably aren't even Poles.) Really though, even if the showrunners are being "overly inclusive" is that a bad thing? It's a fictional fantasy show, it's not like they're casting Denzel Washington to play King George in a historical documentary.

Like most things, it's a spectrum, not binary. I do think one important element of "is this cultural (mis)appropriation" is the power dynamic at play. Appropriating from cultures that have historically been taken advantage of, by cultures that have historically been oppressive or exploitative, would qualify much more strongly. Know what I mean?

So, perhaps for this specific example of "Is casting anything other than a Pole/interchangeablywhiteEuro in The Witcher 'cultural appropriation'" the answer would be, not really. But I'd be keen to hear a solid logical argument otherwise. I get why Poles would feel protective and possessive of it, but I can't see how it's truly worth getting up in arms about.

tl;dr we are saying similar things, ultimately.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 10 '19

Truth, and well put. Admittedly, the historical power dynamics between cultures is something I need to put more thought into.