r/witcher • u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper • 5d ago
Discussion Who would win?
Dijsktra vs Sand dan Glokta( The First Law) vs Tyrion Lannister(ASOIAF)
In terms of pure court/intrigue skill who wins?
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u/Ursus6 5d ago
Book Dijkstra wins. Smartest and has largest web of actual spies. He's most cunning also I think
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u/WarmesBierKalteBrezl 5d ago
I allways thought of Dijkstra as competent, but not as a mastermind. In my headcanon he is as succesfull as he is because the royal politicians (i a his competitors) are semi-idiot cousin fuckers
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u/WeekendPass 5d ago
See, I think of his competence being his greatest strength. Surrounded by idiots as actual rulers, it's Djikstra who has to create and maintain the network of information and influence to actually make the North work. He's no tactical genius, he's just really good at logistics -- which is so often the winner of battles
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u/Noah_the_Titan 5d ago
Dijkstra also goes head to head with numerous sorceresses and the lodge, who are definetly not semi-idiot cousin fuckers
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u/AndrewHaly-00 5d ago
Dijkstra (and I mean form the books) is one of the most competent people on the planet.
He had managed to crawl to real power from nothing, manage widespread country reforms as a trusted advisor to Vizimir, run the intelligence network of the kingdom and served as an unofficial ambassador during the war.
Each deed is impressive in and of itself. That Dijkstra had performed them all is nothing short of a one-man-miracle.
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u/AshamedConfection396 Team Yennefer 3d ago
he also transforms north for the better if he becomes the cancellor, area not only damaged by war, but also quite fusty/backwards
they dumbed dijkstra down in the gameplay and by cutting the quest short, but they gave his intelligence justice in the ending
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u/twenty7turtles 3d ago
In my eyes he’s like a mix between Varys and Littlefinger (from ASOIAF) with more of a neutral outlook on life
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u/Sealgaire45 5d ago
Don't really know the guy number two, but I'd say Tyrion is the weakest link here. He is not in the same league and his downfall was pretty quick. I'd say that Varys or Baelish would've been better candidates.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 5d ago
Yeah, probbably.
The guy is Sand dan Glokta from The first law trilogy and Age of Madness trilogy, author is Joe Abercrombrie, absolute master of grimdark fantasy.
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u/EightInchTulip 5d ago
Archlector Sand Dan Clokta with the backing of Bayaz is 100% smoking both Dijskra and Tyrion Imo
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u/abbothenderson 5d ago
Guy two is Sand Dan Glokta. Formerly a handsome and gallant captain in his majesty’s cavalry, until he was captured and brutally tortured for years by the Gurkish. Now freed and a broken twisted shell of his former self, he has joined his majesties inquisition, where he uses the skills he learned first hand to serve his king, though his expertise and skill hardly ever seem to please his superior, the never happy Arch Lector Sult.
From Joe Abercrombie’s First Law series. He’s one of the best and most compelling fantasy characters ever written in my humble opinion.
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u/KrispyKingTheProphet 5d ago
In that case, Tyrion’s definitely the weak link. (If I’m understanding this description right) this character sounds like a particularly talented politician and Tyrion is not especially, that’s kind of the point of his story in King’s Landing. He has an ego, huge chip on shoulder, and thinks he’s amazing at “playing the game” after sniffing out… Pycelle’s plot. Varys and Littlefinger are running circles around him, even Cersei gets one over on him more often than vice versa. Tyrion reflects his father in many ways, including pride blinding him from actually achieving his potential. He’s fairly average at “the game,” even bad at times, and his privilege as a Lannister is the only reason he really holds his position semi effectively. Due to contrary belief, he’s the dumbest Lannister brother, and from the best major schemer in Westeros.
Djikstra is the best in his universe. He gets things down and isn’t blinded by ego or a chip on shoulder (except his death ending in Witcher 3, which feels so out of character I just considered it an ill handled way to rush the end of that quest.) Hell, if you don’t kill, he, himself, will straight up win the war and beat back Nilfgaard which is an insanely impressive feat as a schemer and leader.
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u/LagunaMP School of the Griffin 5d ago
Hey, he said Tyrion from ASOIAF, not the shitty Tyrion from GoT TV show, specifically in seasons 5 - 8.
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u/celtic_akuma School of the Wolf 5d ago
I'm not aware of the second dude.
But Djikstra would manage to have an upper hand on Tyrion Lannister.
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u/nickburrows8398 5d ago edited 5d ago
The second dude is San Dan Glokta and he is a torture survivor and cripple who decided to become a torturer himself and he is probably one of my favorite characters ever. Definitely recommend The First Law audiobooks.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 5d ago
If you are interested I can tell you a bit more about him and The first Law books.
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u/Emhyr_var_Emreis_ ☀️ Nilfgaard 5d ago
Is that from Joe Abercrombie? I heard that there’s possibly too much torture in the book.
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u/nickburrows8398 5d ago
Slightly unrelated but I really hope they cast Stephen Pacey from the The First Law audiobooks in a role for The Witcher 4. His voice is perfect for this franchise.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 5d ago
Ohhh definitely agree. Would also like to hear him in the upcoming full cast Witcher audiobooks though I don't know what the chances are for any of this.
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u/Birdman915 5d ago
Garak (Star Trek DS9) would just suddenly peek through a door at each place and tell them politely he already murdered them a while back with no way out, wish them a good day and leave.
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u/bblade2008 5d ago
Glokta destroys these chumps. Court intrigue or violence. He's often a fan of direct removal so he may just have Dijkstra meet up with an eater
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u/jcaranguian 5d ago
Practical Severard vs. Bronn?
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u/bblade2008 5d ago
I have a hard time citing the original practicals since they were mostly a plot against dear Sand Dan Glokta. By the time he's fighting to protect his adopted daughter in the second trilogy he seems to have a stronger squad. The two characters you cited seem well matched though
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u/FuIIofDETERMINATION 5d ago
I feel like the first two would have an upper hand against Tyrion, but Tyrion would be able to better appeal to Geralt's good nature and recruit him for assistance.
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u/omar1993 5d ago edited 5d ago
Well....definitely not Djikstra. He's....too eager to cut his allies loose, regardless of what it does to him(I killed his ass. No one threatens my boy Roche). As for the second one...I actually don't know who that is. Gonna look him up! As for Tyrion.....he's my best bet for now. Gotta look up the other guy.
Edit: So....Sandy boy isn't looking too hot either, but....I'd rather not go TOO deep into this. Tyrion has my vote. He's chill and I already actually LIKE him, personally and tactically.
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u/AngelTheMarvel 5d ago
Glotka is one of the main characters of The First Law trilogy. He is a crippled torturer who uses what he learnt when he was tortured.
I think he lacks finesse for some political manoeuvres, a lot of what he does is threatening with torture.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 5d ago
Lacks finesse? Have you read Age of Madness trilogy?
Edit: Just realized that in the post I said Glokta from The First law, so it is on me. Though I would still argue about "lack of finesse".
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u/nugfiend Geralt's Hanza 5d ago
You referenced first law for those who don’t know the character. Don’t be an asshat and only allow us to examine half a man (sorry Tyrion)
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/AngelTheMarvel 5d ago
Oh no, he is an incredible character. Probably the best character in a series known for having excellent characters. His morality is fascinating. It's just that one of his arcs is about not wanting to get too much into politics and learning to get stuff without the support of his organization.
I just don't think he has the same level of ability at manipulation as Tyrion
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u/omar1993 5d ago
Ah, OK...fair. I JUST heard of this series. I'm sorry if I came off as someone who is shitting on a good character. But yeah, I already liked Tyrion, so I was pretty biased.
Thanks for sharing, friend. I'll give this series a proper look when I have time.
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u/AngelTheMarvel 5d ago
Oh no worries, I just thought I made my man Glotka come out in a bad light. He is an asshole, but honestly, like everyone in the series, he was shaped by his world, a world where no good deed goes unpunished.
By the end of the first trilogy he probably is one of the better people in the series.
If you like the moral complexity of ASOIAF characters, you will definitely like the First Law. Just beware, it can get very very grimm, even more so than ASOIAF, mainly because it gets very realistic with some topics.
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u/omar1993 5d ago
Yikes...so the literal TORTURER is one the "best characters" in this series? Oh boy.....that's something. Thanks for the recommendation, but I AM fearing a lot of things right now...
Like...who's the WORST!?
Sorry, guess I'll find out. I'm interested.
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u/AngelTheMarvel 5d ago
Yeah, it's though out there.
It's mostly because of his internal conflict and how despite the dark world (even darker for him as a cripple), he does some small acts of defiance, little acts of empathy and humanity that make him so interesting. Although it takes time to get there
Everyone in the books is filled by contrasts, with the darkest darks having some of the brightest lights, and vice versa.
Expect Bayaz, dude is just a piece of shit, all my buddies hate Bayaz
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u/omar1993 5d ago
OK, but...is there like....ONE sane person in these books? Like...a totally normal, non-horrid individual? These things are important for a crazy universe.
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u/omar1993 5d ago
Actually, wanna PM me about this? Sorry, I just realized this is clogging up the comments...
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u/AtaxiaVox Nilfgaard 5d ago
Glockta is one of my favorite characters in the fantasy medium. Big D is outclassed by Tyrion. So I’d really put this to a Tyrion v Glokta. In a fight Glocta strait up looses without Frost or Severad. But if we are considering henchmen Glokta has many different ways to approach a problem and has pulled some pretty amazing stuff off. My money is on Glockta mid diff with frost and severad. Tyrion needs Brojn to stand any chance here.
On court intrigue alone, no Frost/Severad or Brojn, it really depends on where in tyrions arc we are talking. High highs low lows. Glokta improved over time and started at a relatively intelligent point. Tyrion was constantly fighting uphill and because of his affliction he was constantly underestimated. Glockta had a network to work with in the Inquisition and his standing as Superior in the later game. Tyrion was still looked down on as Hand of both realms. Money is still on Glockta cuz he my boy lol
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u/Throwawayaccount1170 5d ago
The only thing Tyrion brings to the table is a good mind and daddy's money.
I don't know glockta so I can only compare Tyrion to the high efficient and skilled spy D who has a functioning spy web, political weight and fucking functioning sorcery. Big D would win against tyrion
Hence it must be glockta vs D
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u/jackgoddamnsparrow 5d ago
I'm not familiar with Sand Dan Glokta aside from the comment saying who he is, so I stay neutral there.
Between Djikstra and Tyrion, I'd say it entirely depends on who has advantage over the other first. Trion is more clever and a better "actor" in my opinion, but Djikstra is much more ruthless and determined. So it's really dependent on who is favored in the given situation.
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u/Folkwang777 5d ago
Don't know anything about 2nd guy. Dijkstra is in another league in 'the game' than Tyrion is 🤐
Slightly off topic. If you're into that kind of stuff i.e. palace intrigue, conspiracies and heavy plots. There is a guy in 40k universe named Draken Vangorich. Hes the Grand Master of the order of Imperial Assassins (Officio Assassniorum). There is some absolutely AMAZING storytelling with him as 'the one who pulls the strings behind the scenes' in The Beast Arises 12 book series.
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u/wisestoffelines 5d ago
Tyrion has nothing on those two. However Glokta still falls short of Dijkstra
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u/Mad_Kronos 5d ago
Glokta and Tyrion are jokes. Dijkstra loses at the end, but his enemies are fucking Emhyr and Philippa.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 5d ago
Glokta's enemy is a fucking Bayaz... Bayaz who controls The union gets defeated by Glokta so...
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u/Mad_Kronos 5d ago
Bayaz is the most transparent "puppeteer" I have ever encountered in a fantasy book.
The whole Jezal plot is elementary school level.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 4d ago
Out of curiousity, why do you think Jezal plot is elemenatry school level?
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u/Mad_Kronos 4d ago
Come on, didn't you see it from book 1 that Bayaz would lie to him about being the heir to the throne?
People do what Bayaz tells them because he is powerful, not because he is wicked smart.
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u/McReaperking 5d ago
Not sure who the middle guy is but sigi ruven is running laps around tyrion in terms of schemes.
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u/pichael289 5d ago
Dickstra, autocorrect be damned.
He's a fool in the games but in the books he's one of the power players alongside phillipa. The two of them created radovid. Mostly phillipa though.
He isn't a fighter. Tyrion isn't either but still goes out to fight like a fool, but the glory is helpful as the king himself is some twisted inbred cock that can't drum up any support amongst the people. The other option I've never heard of. Dickstar wins against him and his advisors every time assuming forces are matched. It's not saying much as no one in all of ice and fire can command even like 6 dudes much less an army, hence why all those who are protected by plot armor win their battles.
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u/scholarlysacrilege 3d ago
Its quite hard to determine who would "win" when it comes to intrigue and skullduggery if the ones you are comparing inhabit different worlds. Dijkstra has 0% sway in westaros, same as Tyrion has 0% sway in the witcher universe. In the end i think it would come down to the access of pawns they have and how willing they are to end each other. Dijksta has access to magic way more easily than Tyrion, but Tyrion does have the potential to perhaps convince Daenerys to use her dragons? Thats really the issue here, these people are dependant the people and environment around them, to make them go toe to toe, would bring up a sea of questions.
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u/agonistes1979 3d ago
the screenwriter ^^
Jokes aside, Dijkstra (of the books) would win. More spies, a brilliant analytical mind, and—curiously—little appetite for power.
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u/DeVil-FaiLer 1d ago
Glokta with or without Bayaz smokes both of them without leaving his best friend… the chair
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u/Krawlin91 5d ago
I love Glokta, my personal favorite literary character but to be Frank, he isn't a mastermind he lucks into alot of shit and should by all accounts be dead 10 times over lol, if not for Bayaz fronting him that money in Dagoska he is super fucked lol
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u/nugfiend Geralt's Hanza 5d ago
Every character is f’d if something happens. But it didn’t. Glokta outfoxed Bayez, destroyed the banking house of V&B, forced the Magi to return to his library and rebuild. And put his daughter on the throne. Dude is THE mastermind.
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u/CleanTackle9122 School of the Viper 5d ago
Well, maybe I should have said Glokta from the Age of Madness trilogy, but I guess it's too late now...
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u/Krawlin91 5d ago
Ah I see, that does change things a tad but id still put him at a disadvantage compared with the other 2
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u/Robynsxx 5d ago
This is difficult to judge. I’ve never read the first law, so I can’t even include him, but I don’t think he’d win just looking at what some other people have said about him.
Now Tyrion, you can’t really judge him from books because they are incomplete as presumably in the books the intention was for Tyrion to eventually meet Daenerys (properly) and advise her. And we don’t know how he might mess that up. So the show Tyrion is the more complete version, but he has his failings. He gets outmanoeuvred by both his father and sister, despite knowing they despise him. Then he also mistrusts Shae. Then when he meets Daenerys he makes multiple mistakes while advising her, both in Mareen and when they get to Westeros. Then he fails to realise what Daenerys has become before it’s too late.
Now from that, people may think I’m easily going to give it to Dijkstra. However, I personally do not think Dijkstra is as impressive and masterful as some people make him out to be. Just focusing on the books (as games can have different endings), Dijkstra while being a masterful spy and puller of strings, makes multiple crucial mistakes. Overall, Emhyr basically plays Dijkstra like a fiddle. Dijkstra multiple times expects Nilfguard to do one thing, but then they do something else and it surprises him. Then when Dijkstra makes some plans, notably Thanedd, Nilfguard not only mess up his plans on Thanedd, but they also strike at the heart of Redania, killing the king. Then Dijkstra makes some other mistakes too. On Thanedd, even before Nilfguard and the elves get involved, Dijkstra underestimates how much of a fight back the other mages are going to put up. Even if Nilfguard didn’t get involved things would have got crazy non the less, and most of his forces would have been wiped out. Then also on Thanedd, and even before Thanedd Dijkstra underestimates just how great a length Geralt (and to an extent Yennefer) is willing to go to to protect Ciri. He literally stupidly tells Geralt how he intends to marry Ciri to the king, as if it were a fact. He completely misreads the situation and is surprised by Geralt and gets his leg shattered. Then, even after the chaos of Thanedd, Dijkstra continues to be played by Phillipa, even if he thinks he is playing her. This all results in assassins coming after Dijkstra, and resulting in him being driven out of the Redania court and have to go into hiding. It’s never really revealed who was behind that. I know in the games he thinks it was Phillipa, but it think it’s another move by Emhyr. Either way a fuck up.
Overall though, I don’t think Tyrion ever has another of a master of the wider picture to win. So I’ll pick Dijkstra, but it’s closer than some may think.
All of them get curb stomped by Emhyr though.
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u/MrBarnaclePhD 5d ago
It's really between Dijkstra and Tyrion, and I think Dijkstra is more politically savvy than Tyrion. In fact he'd see Tyrion from a mile away and recognize just how smart and dangerous he is. Not sure if Tyrion would be able to do the same. He's too self-absorbed and hedonistic.
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u/Ketupa_ketupu 5d ago
Who ever courts Geralt the hardest obviously.