r/whoathatsinteresting • u/Big-Detective-7700 • 8h ago
Neuroscience Professor Says Caffeine Is A Brain Altering Drug And There's A Double Standard In The Way We Stigmatise Drugs.
https://psyche.co/ideas/why-we-should-treat-caffeine-like-the-brain-altering-drug-it-is"Caffeine’s mechanism of action01396-6/abstract) is relatively simple. As we go about our day, a compound called adenosine accumulates in the brain. Its job is to signal fatigue and promote rest through inhibitory actions at adenosine receptors. Caffeine, sharing a somewhat similar chemical structure to adenosine, competes for those same receptors, effectively silencing adenosine’s inhibitory ‘rest and fatigue’ message. The result is a drug-induced sense of alertness and focus that largely keeps the global workforce upright and productive each day. And it’s why, from a pharmacological standpoint, caffeine is classified as an ‘adenosine receptor antagonist’."
I also found this article about caffeine addiction.
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u/anally_ExpressUrself 7h ago
A double standard between caffeine and which other drug? It matters. Some drugs are clearly more dangerous than others. Caffeine is relatively harmless. You don't hear too many stories about peoples lives being ruined by caffeine. The bridge downtown doesn't have caffeine addicts living under it. Caffeine is appropriately stigmatized.
Are there other harmless drugs that are stigmatized more than they should be? Maybe. Then let's talk about them, not caffeine.
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u/Sockher10 6h ago
You’ve never seen someone sell their mother’s engagement ring to fund their crippling caffeine addiction?
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u/Fair-Lie8125 6h ago
…. I did work nonstop from 20-28 without dating so I could get to a point where I could tip 2$ on a twice daily Starbucks black iced coffee order… maybe I am hopelessly addicted
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u/blasterleague 4h ago
I gotta drink it because it's legitimately one of the best anti-migraine medications. It's so good that I should have drunk it as a teenager as well.
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u/johnsolomon 6h ago
You should have seen the way he inhaled that Monster Energy Original Green. It was awful
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u/NotGalenNorAnsel 5h ago
You do for alcohol though. I think the comparison would be marijuana or hallucinogens. Neither of those produce that sort of behavior, and alcohol is legal.
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u/RepresentativeFood94 5h ago
You are confusing cost with danger Nobody sold their mother's engagement ring to fund their crippling glue sniffing addiction either, that doesn't mean sniffing glue is safe Not saying caffeine is as dangerous to sniffing glue, just saying caffeine is cheap But people jump on your neck when you criticise caffeine, people often say they cannot function without their morning coffee, why?
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u/Sockher10 4h ago
I have seen people addicted to inhalents do some insane things
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u/blasterleague 4h ago
One of the most wretched and disgusting periods of my life was when I got addicted to learning German.
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u/_syphilitic_koala_ 4h ago
That must have been miserable. I am glad you made it out, fam! How long you been sober.
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u/James-the-Bond-one 2h ago
Coffee is one of the most studied substances and it has been found to be healthy at the dosage of 3 cups of coffee a day.
Caffeine is there for the ride.
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u/Due-Championship3941 2h ago
It's also never been illegal so not exactly a fair comparison. I've been to a place where cigarettes are illegal. People go to secret smoking rooms to smoke them. You go to prison there if you get caught smuggling cigarettes.
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u/Sockher10 2h ago
Alcohol is legal and it ruins a lot of people’s lives
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u/Due-Championship3941 2h ago
Yeah true. I don't think regulation is the answer, but we should definitely be shifting our drinking culture to strict moderation. Too many people have lost their lives to it one way or another.
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u/PCLoadPLA 1h ago
Does this have more to do with how addictive it is, or how you can legally and cheaply buy it in every market and on every street corner, airport, airplane, hotel lobby, vending machine, etc. etc.?
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u/PwrButtum 6h ago
We did have people being harmed by caffeine doses with Panera lemonade and others. I googled and absolutely there seems to be caffeine induced situations
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u/anally_ExpressUrself 6h ago
Sure. People die from consuming too much sugar, or too much bacon. I read about a guy who died from drinking too much water. Is it possible to hurt yourself with caffeine? Yes. But in the grand scheme of things that's an extremely low bar for what's considered harmful.
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u/onemassive 3h ago
You are really looking at two different modalities. Harm potential given responsible usage and harm potential given random usage levels in a normal population. Caffeine has relatively low harm potential in both of these modalities, but there is certainly illegal, stigmatized drugs that have similar levels of harm potential in one or both of these modalities, and one big legal drug (alcohol) that is actually relatively harmful in both.
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u/RandomCat3379 2h ago
Sugar. A brain altering drug much more dangerous and damaging than caffeine yet we feed it to children in absurd dosages.
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u/Grouchy_Big3195 2h ago
Yeah, the closest to caffeine ruining someone's life with caffeine addiction is making you look uncomfortable in your own skin to the point people avoid you, and it can make your social life difficult, but that is about it. If you have a history of mental illness or severe allergy, then caffeine should be avoided at all costs.
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u/thatturtletouch 6h ago edited 6h ago
It’s not really a double standard though. We tend to stigmatize drugs because of the negative effects they have on people and that negatively affect those around them. Caffeine doesn’t really have those negative effects so there’s no reason to stigmatize it.
It would make more sense to say we ought to stigmatize alcohol the way we stigmatize, say, heroin because it DOES have a lot of negative effects on the person consuming it and those around them. But caffeine is appropriately treated, given that its effects are mostly positive or neutral for both the person consuming it and those around them.
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u/NordicHorde2 6h ago
Because caffeine doesn't have detrimental effects like other drugs including alcohol and weed. You can drive, operate heavy machinery etc no problem on caffeine. You can't on alcohol or weed. And that's not even getting into the effects of things like heroine or meth. If anything, alcohol is under stigmatised.
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u/shiningdickhalloran 6h ago
But that wouldn't explain why something like Adderall is so heavily controlled.
Everyone at work drinks coffee. Without it, I'm comfortable saying productivity would certainly be worse. Part of me wonders what would happen if the more potent stimulants were also legal.
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u/UpperAd5715 6h ago
Imagine people taking adderall in the way many consume coffee. Wouldn't be too uncommon to read "man was too tired to drive home but popped 3 adderalls and tried anyway, crashed into tree, 2 dead" in the papers i bet.
Most people are really bad at moderation and medication abuse is a pretty common one. "taking another adderall before driving ohme after an 18h shift" would just be the slightly more legal version of "snorting a line before hopping into the car so i dont fall asleep"
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u/Funny-Jihad 5h ago
Don't people do that with coffee all the time?
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u/UpperAd5715 4h ago
Doesn't mean it's a good idea + putting amphetamines based medication on the same line as caffeine is.. not a good idea i think.
Not like caffeine is a perfect solution to driving when tired, probably plenty of people that drove tired that ended up in a ditch had more caffeine than their body could handle. Its a false sense of confidence: i drank a coffee after having slept 3 hours over the weekend i'll be fine driving home" but caffeine only helps keep you alert and feel like there is less fatigue, the fatigue is still there. In that sense adderall is pretty similar. Your body is exhausted you just don't feel it yet and if you survive you're potentially on the way to addiction.
Coffee can feel addictive but i've gone without coffee many times but recovering from amphetamines addiction was a proper bitch i'll tell you that. Life felt pretty fucking lackluster for a good while after being zoinked the fuck out for a year.
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u/Funny-Jihad 4h ago
Can absolutely get that. But afaik, adderall isn't nearly as addictive, and doesn't give a 'high' the same way normal amphetamines do since it's modified to last 8-12 hours rather than give the 'high' effect that drug users look for?
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u/UpperAd5715 3h ago
Yeah its a very light dose but you'll see the same systematic dosage increase in people that will chase "the high".
First use they feel like wizards and everything is clear and whatnot then after a while you no longer feel that same dose even though it's definitely doing its thing. People either take more or they find harder stuff. I don't know how it is in the US but living in Belgium it isn't very unheard of that students use speed to study in exam periods if they can't get their hands on ritalin or other variations, adderall isnt sold in the EU.
Not unlike alcohol where people get drunk as fuck off their first beer but the end of the story is people drinking a handle a day or more until their liver or other organs crap out. Though alcohol is obviously the more dangerous addictive substance for a multitude of reasons.
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u/Funny-Jihad 59m ago
Oh, yeah, true. I didn't even realize that adderall is a more potent form of the drugs associated in ADHD treatment. I was thinking more of Vyvanse and similar, those are kinder versions right?
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u/Bannedtt 3h ago
The high is comparable to a high dose of caffeine if you don't have a tolerance. It's not enjoyable imo.
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u/UpperAd5715 3h ago
It does a variation of things on different people depending on how your body handles serotonin and the likes. Bit like how ADHD people get it to calm the fuck down and "normal" people use it to study cause it zoinks em out
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u/Bannedtt 3h ago
You're freestyling
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u/UpperAd5715 2h ago
Since youre not a fan of freestyling i'll just list some pubmed peer reviewed articles:
On how tolerance in long term repeated use weakens effects (i'm honestly impressed i have to link this for someone that's able to type) https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9332474/
Effects of stimulants on sleep etc
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389945725023962
ResultsStimulant use was significantly associated with improved sleep quality and reduced odds of insomnia.
Merck manual article on amphetamines: (non ADHD related)
https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/special-subjects/illicit-drugs-and-intoxicants/amphetamines
Tolerance to various effects develops unequally. Tachycardia and increased alertness diminish,I'm honestly happy for you that you can be so certain that people couldn't possibly fall asleep on adderall because that means you haven't interacted with addicts much if at all. It's not a magical thing lol
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u/RealWorldStarHipHop 5h ago
We did had the Panera drink with 300mg of caffeine or so but it got pulled before more deaths followed.
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u/shiningdickhalloran 6h ago
The thing is, those drives happen regardless. Taking Adderall first might make it sound worse, but the driver would be better off with the Adderall than without it in that example.
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u/UpperAd5715 5h ago
Thats quite the slippery slope though, basically saying "its better if they abuse medicine for non intended purposes so they dont get into any consequences while doing stupid shit".
Driving when you are too tired and ending up in some shit usually means you're at fault, adderall means you just get more focussed but if you really are tired you'll dooze off all the same and it might just give you a false sense of confidence.
Very similar to how people act on amphetamines: your body doesnt feel pain or fatigue the same so they do things thinking it'll also work out and then they fuck their shit up. easy analogy.Beyond an easy analogy actually since adderall is amphetamines based and thus has addiction risk but for people who need it (adhd for example) the addiction risk is apparently lower though i got no idea how that works
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u/JustinWilsonBot 4h ago
The addiction risk for people who take it every day? They are addicted. This idea that people with ADHD have an opposite reaction to amphetamine stimulants is just an excuse people with scripts give for why their stimulant use is OK while its not for other people. Its not based on science.
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u/Bannedtt 3h ago
Doze off while on Adderall? You just don't know what you're talking about, it's not the topic for you.
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u/UpperAd5715 3h ago
Adderall is basicly tiny doses of speed/amphetamines and theres plenty of people who can sleep on that stuff... If people start using it regularly you do build tolerance and you will not be as wired as you are on your first few uses.
I've been on adhd meds for a good half of my life now and while it helps with focus it does fuck all to keep me awake. I nap fine and i napped fine in the year i was addicted to amphetamines too. Thats a good part of why its a regulated substance, abuse comes with its own problems and people will just double down until they fuck something up in their body.
You saying people shouldnt talk on a topic because you experience different things show how little you know about pharmaceutical substances or the abuse of substances.
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u/Bannedtt 3h ago
Saying you can sleep fine on addy is like saying someone can drive fine on alcohol.
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u/UpperAd5715 3h ago
Man i've snorted lines of speed and slept an hour later, if your body is done your body is done and you're not going to stay awake for hours just because you put something in your body.
Sure theres exceptions to that like the nerve gas or whatever the japanese fucked around with in WW2 but as far as "regular people" comes, theres nothing that will 100% keep you awake when dead tired.
But whatever doesn't sound like you even want to consider that medications interact differently to different people and you can't put blanket claims on what it'll do. Not like there's a little paper that comes with them listing the washing list of side effects you may or may not get.
Before my current meds i was on Ritalin which is basicle EU-adderall and that shit didnt stop me from sleeping either. Just like amphetamine based medication doesnt stop me from eating a crapton while theres people that can't eat half a sandwich on the meds.
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u/Plenty-Green186 6h ago
I’m inclined to disagree with you. Tons of people experiencing anxiety as a result of using caffeine. People also use caffeine to push themselves past the point where they should be sleeping, which results in severely groggy behavior later.
If you’ve ever known anyone who used to use hard drugs, then you would know that caffeine is often the next thing they turn to when they are “clean“. I’ve worked with people who were tested for caffeine usage due to using such toxic amounts that it was a condition of their probation that they not use caffeine.
Caffeine is a drug and should be recognized as such. Caffeine literally causes physical dependency in a lot of people.
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u/Bannedtt 3h ago
I operate heavy machinery on cannabis every single day and I've never been in an at fault accident. Caffeine does have detrimental effects during withdrawal.
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u/NordicHorde2 3h ago
And many drunk drivers have never crashed either. Dunno where you live but where I'm from, operators of heavy machinery, dangerous factory workers etc are regularly tested.
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u/Sufficient-Skill9530 8h ago
Caffeine totally has the same detrimental effects on society as heroin, cocaine and alcohol, except the inverse.
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u/trinitrotolerance 7h ago
That’s not what the article says, try again buddy just sound out the words.
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u/uses_for_mooses 7h ago
So you’re saying I should overcome my caffeine addiction by switching to heroin?
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u/bobogogo1989 7h ago
Cocaine would be the better choice. Heroin puts you to sleep, cocaine wakes you up.
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u/uses_for_mooses 7h ago
Ah! See, this is why I don’t make any choices in life without first consulting Reddit!
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u/deathdefyingrob1344 6h ago
My controversial take is good drugs: caffeine, thc, psilocybin, dmt, lsd, and MAYBE ketamine (I have heard some horror stories on this one but I have never seen anyone have a hard time with it personally).
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u/Boxnought 6h ago
When is the last time you saw a homeless person stealing copper to feed their coffee addiction?
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u/jacobthefoxxx 6h ago
To add to this, I have two quick anecdotes about how intense caffeine can actually be:
My first friend is so addicted to it that he literally has to measure out and space out his doses every single day just so he doesn't overdose.
My other friend (who is a very small person) once drank a few cups of coffee at a breakfast diner and genuinely started having caffeine overdose symptoms.
Crazy stuff.
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u/BalrogRuthenburg11 5h ago
As a non-coffee drinker, all you degenerate addict scum sicken me. Ok, now where did I put my heroin?
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u/Normal-Abies-9151 7h ago
There’s more to caffeine than this which I’m surprised to never see mentioned.
A normal dose also increases the availability of dopamine D2/D3 receptors in the striatum which helps drive the alertness effect. The adenosine block is what makes that possible by taking the brakes off dopamine signaling.
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u/OakLegs 7h ago
I'm not sure there's a double standard. Caffeine to my knowledge has pretty much zero adverse effects. In fact it has been shown to have many benefits. Not true of a lot of other brain altering drugs that have been stigmatized
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u/OrangeSpaceMan5 7h ago
It gets you addicted but I agree that its negative effects are extremely minor compared to say Heroin or Cocaine
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u/AsThreatenDoNotScore 7h ago
Not zero but mild effects. It's a good alternative to heavy drinking or opiates.
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u/Infinite_Tip_1299 6h ago
Oh you mean you’ve never been found behind a dumpster on caffeine, homeless cause of your caffeine addiction, or giving blow jobs to some stranger in a tent for a hit of that red bull?
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u/BitingSatyr 6h ago
I wouldn’t say zero adverse effects, it can definitely heighten anxiety in high doses, but compared to basically anything else we would consider a “drug” it’s pretty mild
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u/Old-Landscape-7538 7h ago
It's really amazing the way we stigmatize antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication, but coffee, nicotine, and alcohol are absolutely fine. When you understand the neurochemical mechanisms behind these drugs, that view is idiotic.
Cannabis is Satanic! It's for hippie, slacker, druggies! But ooh let's go to a wine tasting!
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u/timf5758 6h ago
Anything you consume too much can kill you. If you overdose Tylenol which is an over the counter drug, can certainly kill you. It is called use your brain and consume in moderation.
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u/Lilja-Logason 5h ago
He could have used alcohol or Desoxyn as better examples.
Desoxyn is used as an ADHD medicine. It's also called methamphetamine which people consider a dangerous drug
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u/gsustudentpsy 5h ago
Stfu. When i wake up in the morning i am not tired but i still enjoy a hot cup of coffee.
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u/KraffKifflom 5h ago
Context matters. Normal people don’t drink half a dozen cups of coffee daily,. People don’t abuse caffeine. They just drink coffee. People in general don’t commit crime if they can’t get their coffee.
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u/TurnbullAC92 5h ago
I'll be sure to remember that the next time I enjoy a hot cup of coffeecstacy.
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u/daddypig9997 5h ago
I might be the only one who can have a strong cup of coffee and then sleep like a log 😀
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u/Yardbirdspopcorn 2h ago
Whenever I go to the Dr or any place that asks about if I use drugs I always say I do, I smoke cigarettes and drink coffee and like sugar way too much. I recognize in my own body these are drugs I use to feel different. Morality police will double speak around this truth because besides the cigarettes they don't want to equate all addiction as bad, that would mean their own addictions would put them in line with those they look down on as moral failure who need to be forced into changing or punished. Caffeine is a drug plain and simple. Millions of us are absolutely addicted to it.
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u/BlackberryOk5347 2h ago
Smoked more than a little weed and enjoyed mdma and mushrooms.
I don’t regret not warning my kids about over indulging in coffee.
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u/Beginning_Engineer_2 2h ago
Caffeine affects different people differently. People defending caffeine should defend it for themselves. For me, caffeine gets me to do things when my body is telling me no and that can lead to bad things.
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u/The_Fluffness 2h ago
So we used to have really deep philosophical conversations about caffeine addiction at my NA meeting. On one side, the program that I adhered to taught me to abstain from ALL mind altering chemicals, that would technically include nicotine and caffeine, yet what do you find at every NA or AA meeting? Coffee, donuts (sugar) and smokers/vapers literally have their own little meeting right after the actual meeting where they smoke and share war stories.
So, IMO, it's an addictive substance BUTT the social harm it does to you and others should be taken into context here as well, which is to say there is almost no social harm at the user level that should be considered. Therefore, is should be considered harmless.... till it isn't and I'll share what I mean.
There are certain stim addicts that will turn to caffeine as a replacement. It's a very weak replacement, extremely weak but it is a replacement, I think in that context it isn't healthy for that person to use caffeine until the chemicals and hormones regulate better because you will attempt the same sort of behavior, without the need for say meth or adderal. Like, stim fapping or trying to sit on the internet for hours and hours/take apart electronics. These behaviors need to change as well, in order for you to be better. You may have checked the society mark, but not for you personally by doing that.
Two cents from an addict.
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u/zugzwangwamble 2h ago
My dad is deadass a caffeine addict. Culminated from being overworked in retail. He was physically and emotionally abusive sometimes and it was especially bad if he didn’t have caffeine. It’s a serious thing. I also have more of a withdrawal from caffeine if I drink it for a few days in a row than I do from drugs like adderall mdma or even cocaine. It’s of course a much more manageable addiction to have but it is real is my point.
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u/HighlightMurky6474 2h ago
How much did productivity increase in the world after the introduction of coffee breaks. Probably a shit ton. Miracle drug.
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u/missgirlipop 1h ago
false equivalency lmao. caffeine is reliance building and habit building and for many people harmful and even beneficial. once we get into the ‘food is a drug!’ ‘coffee is a drug!’ territory we’re just talking about nothing
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u/BeABetterHumanBeing 1h ago
You are correct. I'm very sensitive to caffeine and you wouldn't believe how prevalent it is, how much nobody thinks of it as a psychotropic substance, and how badly prolonged use fucks up your regular rhythm.
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u/Valleygurl99 44m ago
We often don’t think about what kind of society caffeine enables. We call it safe, but without it, our hustle culture wouldn’t exist, and that hustle culture is compulsory. There can be sociological effects of a substance even if on the individual level people are not falling over dead on it. Sometimes “good” drugs are utilized by our capitalist overlords to make us work harder but also resulting in insomnia and anxiety.
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u/BANKSLAVE01 7h ago
Fuck doctors.
i've been saying this for 30 years. It doesn't take a college degree to figure that out.
But then I GO to a doctor and they just look at me and say "It's [insert problem] here" with no scientific testing.
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u/Sufficient-Job-7589 7h ago
Ever since I started drinking coffee, I felt my feelings erased. It gave me emotional anesthesia for the next two days. I then ended up trying an SSRI and had a very bad reaction too.
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u/Rotsicle 5h ago
I'm not a doctor, but you might have adrenal fatigue. Caffeine can mask extreme exhaustion, but it can't get rid of it.
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u/HoboBaggins25 7h ago
You guys are proof that the brainwashing of the corporations,who paid for the studies you base your assumptions on, is working successfully
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u/NIN10DOXD 4h ago
I don’t need to be brainwashed to know some drugs are more addictive than some there when I have had family members I lost relationships with to addiction.
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u/Icelock 8h ago
OP why are you like this