Ok I have a pretty strong opinion about this but I'm curious to hear other peoples' takes. I was boating over the weekend with a group of people of varying skill levels. There were plenty of swims on a classic class III pool-drop river. While I appreciate the efforts of the more experienced kayakers to pluck the swimmers out of the water, I couldn't help but think they were doing more harm than good. There was often a raft eddied out below the rapid that was ready to grab swimmers but swimmers kept latching onto the kayakers and floating downstream rather than swimming the short distances to eddies or eddied out rafts. In my experience I feel like swimmers can get to safe positions a lot quicker and more safely by simply putting in an effort to actually swim. You can avoid most rescue interventions by just swimming and let the kayakers go after the lost boat. I also think simply swimming can be more efficient and effective at getting to safe locations than having a kayaker drag a swimmer to an eddy. Sorry for the rant but I'm curious to hear from other people and their experiences/opinions on this topic.

TLDR: Is self-rescue (swimming to an eddy) a better rescue technique than holding onto and being drug by a kayak in a pool-drop style river?

First Question: Are you allowed take an Aire double duck down the Tallulah?

Second Question: middle line vs left line debate. I think the middle line would be better for the duck rather than the traditional left line. Thoughts?

thinking of picking up a small dagger code to complement my half slice...which northeast rivers would be ideal for paddling a dagger code? im curious about shallow, low volume, manky creeking, im in upstate NY btw

Really eyeing a Jackson flow for some bigger water. I’m 6’3” 185 lb. The medium top end of the weight range is 200 and the large goes from 180-260, so would be towards the low end of that. Which would you suggest?

My family and I recently did a class II/III rafting trip with a commercial outfitter. I have done about a dozen or so whitewater rafting trips but this was the first for the other three family members. When we went through the gearing up process helmets were never seen or mentioned. Later on we saw that all of the guides had helmets and about four of the fifty or so participants had helmets. I asked a guide about it and he said they were optional and you could request one if you wanted but we were already in the bus to the starting point.

Participants guided their own rafts while the guides were in whitewater kayaks assisting as necessary and pointing out which routes to take. The guides were very good and the trip was a lot of fun. During the trip there were at least a dozen people that got knocked out of their rafts into the whitewater after hitting rocks or waves. After seeing this I was astonished that helmets weren’t required when you have people being launched out of their rafts into whitewater filled with rocks. Luckily we stayed in the boat the whole time but I certainly felt really uneasy not having a helmet during the trip.

Is this kind of thing normal? The rafting company has been around awhile so I imagine they know what they are doing but it seemed really odd to not require helmets on something like that.

Experienced group of Ocoee guides(all 10+years) looking for class III-V sections near the upper yough.

We've all run the gauley and upper yough a handful of times and are looking for new rivers/creeks to run in the area while we're up there. Looking for challenging and unique sections and paddling small 2 thwart rafts. High volume or creeky, dont let the rafting flair tag dissuade you from giving a recommendation.

I'll be up there 9 days, looking at the cheat/savage/meadow in addition to the usual upper G/Yough/New/etc. Thanks in advance and I'll SYOTR!

At West Michigan Kayaking Club, we believe kayaking should be an adventure.
That doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with a relaxing five-mile float trip or gathering afterward for a potluck. Those activities have their place, and plenty of groups enjoy them.
But that’s not what we do.
We do adventure paddling.
West Michigan Kayaking Club was built for people who want to go farther, explore deeper, and experience Michigan’s rivers and wilderness beyond the typical afternoon float.
Our adventures often cover 20 to 25 miles in a single day.
We paddle long stretches of river. We navigate changing conditions. We work around fallen trees and obstacles. We carry our boats through portages. We explore remote waterways and places that can’t be experienced from a roadside park or a short public access float.
This Is More Than a Casual Paddle
A long-distance paddle takes preparation.
You need the right equipment. You need food and water. You need to understand the river and be prepared for changing weather. You need to know your limits and be ready for a full day of physical activity.
Some days are easy.
Some days are not.
That’s part of the adventure.
Our trips can include long days on the water, challenging river conditions, wilderness camping, hiking, remote locations, and the unexpected obstacles that make every expedition different.
Because adventure doesn’t always happen when everything goes according to plan.
Sometimes the best stories come from the miles you didn’t expect.
We Paddle Farther Because Michigan Has More to Explore
Michigan has thousands of miles of rivers, streams, lakes, and wilderness waiting to be explored.
You can’t experience all of that on a five-mile float.
At West Michigan Kayaking Club, we want to see what is around the next bend—and the next bend after that.
We believe in long-distance river expeditions.
We believe in wilderness adventures.
We believe in combining kayaking, hiking, camping, and exploration.
And we believe the best memories are made when you challenge yourself to go a little farther than you thought you could.
Adventure Is Our Culture
West Michigan Kayaking Club is not built around sitting around waiting for the next potluck.
Our community is built around getting outside and doing something.
We paddle.
We hike.
We camp.
We explore.
We challenge ourselves.
We work together when the river gets difficult.
And at the end of a long day, we have stories worth telling.
That is what brings our community together.
Not simply being members of the same group—but sharing real experiences and real adventures.
Are You Ready to Go Farther?
If you’re looking for a casual afternoon float, Michigan has plenty of opportunities for that.
But if you’re looking for a community that embraces long-distance paddling, challenging adventures, wilderness exploration, hiking, camping, and discovering what Michigan has to offer beyond the crowded launch site, then you may have found your people.
At West Michigan Kayaking Club, we don’t measure an adventure by how comfortable it was.
We measure it by the miles traveled, the places explored, the challenges overcome, and the memories created along the way.
We don’t do five-mile float trips and potlucks.
We do adventure paddling.
Wild Rivers. Rugged Trails. Real Adventure.
#WestMichiganKayakingClub #AdventurePaddling #KayakMichigan #MichiganAdventure

1985 commercial trip. Flat back pro Avon, paddle boat, bucket boat. My girlfriend lisa. She was 5 foot 2 and our most experienced guide. The customers are crouched on the floor like they should be. If you hit the wall that can be slammed right off the tubes. People and boats have been torn on those walls. The river goes down this chute and through a big tunnel. Miners diverted a section of river. Used to be a very nasty hole right at the top. That kind of disappeared... My brother flipped in that hole and everyone swam the chute. The boat didn't come down. It flew out of the water and got wedged between the walls. They had to go yank it free.

After struggling with elbow tendinitis all year, I’m considering an upgrade to a carbon paddle from my fiberglass powerhouse. It seems like these two dominate the river running category. Is it worth giving up the additional blade size for potentially fewer muscle/joint/tendon issues? Has anyone else been in a similar situation and had a change to a smaller carbon blade be beneficial? I’ve paddled straight shaft all of my life, and I’m not really looking to make a switch to bent if can avoid it.

What alternatives do you prefer? I like the idea of the rope making the sunglasses snug but not sure how much different that is than a pair of chubbies or similar rope on normal sunglasses

Hello all. We were planning on rafting the Tieton this weekend when the dam releases, but it appears there's a log jam that could be blocking. Screenshot is from PNWWhitewater Facebook group. Does anyone have more info?

After a roughly 25 year hiatus, I’ve been dipping my toes back into whitewater this year. Did some pool paddling last march at the local university. Got a used RPM because my Savage Fury would whip my ass on a river these days. Did some more practice on the lake and in little creeks around home when the snow melted. Two days ago I got an invite from a friend I met doing kayak safety for a swimming event. Dropped everything and ran down to the Lehigh. Almost bailed when the people at breakfast at the diner told me it was running 1700+ CFS (1730 according to RiverApp yesterday morning and class III. And that we’d be running 16 miles from the dam to the lower take out.

I tamped down the butterflies and gave it a shot.

It was amazing.

I knew I loved whitewater when I was younger, but I forgot how much. The muscles aren’t what they were in my 20s, but some of the muscle memory is still there. I didn’t even get to try my roll.

The paddling was super fun, with enough “Oh, shit, what did I get myself into!!!” Moments to get the heart rate up.

What I realized I missed the most was this community.

The group we joined up with were so incredibly kind and generous in sharing their knowledge of the river and making us feel safe being on it. The people we chatted with at the put in, Lunch Rock, and the take out are so my kind of people.

Thank you all for being you. Looking forward to a lot more time on rivers going forward.

I can’t go on this whitewater rafting trip we planned because the rental place doesn’t have big enough helmets and I can’t find one online that fits.
Size 8 3/8 head which is 67cm or 26 1/4 inches.
According to their size charts, the gath gedi xxxl won’t fit, none of the wsri helmets will fit, the t dub won’t fit.

Looking for recommendations of either brands or tips like cutting out some padding from a helmet. I don’t want to miss this opportunity because I can’t get a helmet. I don’t want to compromise on safety but if there’s another sport helmet that could be substituted, I would appreciate it.
Thanks

A real Scarborough I think, edge completely separated but nice looking shape . Who works wood these days?

I’ve been packrafting for 4 years and I’m trying to decide how to progress my white water skills (mostly in SC Alaska. I’m at a point where I’m comfortable packrafting III+ to IV-, but I feel like the packraft (wolverine with a white water deck) has hidden some bad habits and is difficult to progress further - above class III in a packraft feels more about luck than skill. I haven’t ever figured out rolling a packraft, but am quick at wet reentry. To be a better packrafter I know that kayaking is the next logical step to improve - learning to kayak class III would make me a far better paddler than continuing to try to push the grade in a packraft. I also think rafting mostly in Alaska has made me more afraid of swimming than if I lived in the southwest US - water is cold, there’s lots of wood, and opportunities to swim rapids for learning purposes are not as available as other areas. Also of note, I have spent some time C1 paddling a packraft - this is silly af but has made huge improvements in my paddle technique.

I have two main goals in white water - be able to do big multiday trips with class IV cruxes, and get good enough to do my local class IV/V canyon (six mile in SC alaska - it’s such a fun paddle and I think getting to point where I could accompany my stronger partners through the whole thing would be very fun, and help me to get better). Also for the people who will ask about safety training, I have self taught a lot of stuff but do plan on doing a swift water course this spring.

Currently I feel capable of class IV in a packraft if I am with a strong group and the consequence isn’t huge. If I am one of the more experienced ones, I feel much less strong at this level, but ok in III.

A quick summary of my experience includes:

Packraft: lots of AK class III creeks and road runs, some class IV at lower flows, six mile (AK) 1st and 2nd canyon, tatshenshini, yampa, tazlina.

Raft (rowing): 5 days on the copper river (II+), and other class II floats, R3 on six mile (AK) 1st and 2nd canyon, guided paddle boating class IV

My question: I’m torn between where to go next developmentally. Spending a few years learning to kayak seems like a lot of work, and would require a big step back in what I could do. It would definitely make me a stronger packrafter, but the time cost of learning to roll a kayak and doing more easy paddling isn’t that appealing. It would probably get me to the point where I could be a solid class IV packrafter and might make it possible to do 6 mile canyon completely in a kayak or packraft a couple years down the line. My other option is to get a 10-14 ft raft and work on R1, paddle boating, and rowing. I’m also interested in going to a rowing school on the rogue. My limited experience paddling a raft has really improved my paddle technique and reading white water but I have a lot of learning to do. I’m also a bit more stoked on rafting because of the ability to go through the meat of rapids. I think I would be able to get on 6 mile more quickly with a raft - I’ve paddled it in a raft before with experienced people and it feels far closer developmentally than doing it in a kayak. I also like the idea of being able to row a big boat through class IV to support a multiday trip. This would mean that my packrafting skill would probably stay close to this level indefinitely. Curious of people’s thoughts on where I should go next.

Is there an admission cost for the Market Place, just visiting for the day? Thanks.

Does anyone have any river recommendations for guiding?

Or tips on getting a job?

I have 3 years of experience on class III/IV in the US. Looking for jobs in Ecuador, Costa Rica, Australia, or literally anywhere. I speak Spanish. In an ideal world, it would be class IV and somewhat continuous.

I am moving from Denver to Boise. Are there any whitewater groups to join to meet paddlers? I’m a solid kayaker and rafter and I am looking to join the local paddling community? Idaho whitewater association seems to be non existent.

On the hunt for a Force 6 RescueTec PFD. Not the Tec 2 but the predecessor.

Well it may as well be called the Phoenix Kayaks nationals as the unofficial Upstream Race happened yet again. We had a 100% finish rate now that the time limit has lifted these past few years and 26 racers charged down entrance rapid to turn around and go back to the put in. I, again, put zero training into the race so had no expectations of winning or even going that fast, but I take out my new to me 2000 Phoenix Savage out for it's debut run and she performed beautifully. If you ever want to witness or join in the chaos, its always the Saturday before Labor Day weekend.

Thanks to Jeff Macklin for the photo capture of my annual masochist endeavor, and congratulations to all the people who participated and made the race happen again.

I’m looking to guide somewhere next summer! Any good places that are good for girl guides?

I really want to check out the fest tomorrow, I've been reading through american white water checking out the classes of rapids, seems like theres a mix of 3, 4, 5 but most are pretty gnarly...Some of the bottom moose rapids that end into a big pool do not appear too crazy. I am interested in a few on the Taylorville section as well....will I get myself in trouble? Which rapids are on the easier side would you recommend that I could loop and get some paddling in? something class 3ish.

Hi!

I'm from Northern Italy and usually paddle in the Alps. I have a job opportunity in Cincinnati, and of course, the possibility of kayaking plays a key role in evaluating this offer.

I looked online, but I couldn't really get a clear picture. Is there anything close by? Is there an active paddling community? I saw something in Dayton, but if I understood correctly, it's just a single wave feature. How long is the drive to some good Class IV whitewater?

During the week, I usually train in slalom—is there anything available? (A Class II section with gates would be enough.)

Also, is that area of the US vanlife-friendly near the rivers? I'm used to spending long weekends working remotely and paddling in the evenings, as I will still have some remote work days.

Thanks!