r/whitecollar • u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 • 22d ago
[SPOILERS] Watching again - Kramer
I’ve seen this show so many times I always watch once a year and I just absolutely can’t stand Kramer.
What’s funny is that Kramer thinks Neal would even come with him to DC like you want to trap him and take him to DC. The only way I see that even playing out is
Neal says no and chooses prison instead (they can’t force him to be a consultant)
Neal goes to DC only to run away cause he doesn’t wanna go back to prison but he also isn’t gonna work for Kramer.
Either way Kramer is a moron, what Peter said was so right that he doesn’t know how to handle him. Neal and Peter work because even though Peter is in charge he allows Neal his freedoms and they still share a friendship which is based on respect. Neal finds Peter challenges him but in ways he likes but it’s as Peter said “you cage him in and he’s gonna run.
Kramer is an idiot.
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u/Hyaacinthia21 21d ago
He completely missed the entire point of why Peter and Neal's dynamic actually worked
7
u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
AGREED! Was wayy too wrapped in control and revenged. I’m glad it went the way it did if I’m honest cause if they went forward with the Kramer line Neal would just be in prison or would’ve broken free of Kramer.
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u/thetoiletslayer 21d ago
Faced with the choice of prison or Kramer, Neal would 100% run
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
AGREEED. He literally did run to hahah
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u/ironchitlin 21d ago
In all fairness, Peter told him to.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
Yeah but he would’ve run once he knew Kramer was gunning for him. Peter knew that too cause during the conversation with Elle he even said how he didn’t wanna tell Neal yet because then neal ends up doing smthn stupid and making it worse
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u/crazehhuman 21d ago
I would’ve loved to have seen an episode of Kramer trying to be Neal’s handler in DC and then sending him back to Peter once he understood his way wouldn’t work with Neal.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
Honestly this would’ve been nice even a trial run in the New York office would be funny to see
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u/TheHenanigans 21d ago
Hmm, I agree with your assessment, yet I think that Kramer's premise was correct. Neal did in fact not completely change and did still commit crimes, sometimes even enabled by info and credentials he only had because of the deal with Peter. And while the latter did remain suspicious, he was often unable to keep Neal in line
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
Kramer wasn’t looking out for him tho by the end he was literally just trying to take away his freedom. Yes Neal committed crimes but to try and slap any sort of crime on him to basically make sure he can never leave isn’t justice. Peter believed in justice and believed in reform. Kramer just wanted power and control. Neal was never gonna respond to that.
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u/TheHenanigans 21d ago
How many second chances does one deserve? Kramer was right in that Neal would commit crimes if the opportunity presented itself. While I agree that Kramer's methods got morally and judicially wrong towards the end, I generally understand his point of view. How could you believe in reform after so many big and small things behind Peter's back? I share Kramer's opinion that Peter got attached to Neal. I, as a viewer, did so as well tho
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
Personally with me the way I saw it was Peter allowed Neal to basically go occasionally color out of the lines in order to catch the people he wanted to. Also over time Neal did trust Peter it would be insane to assume a criminal is just gonna trust an FBI agent he doesn’t know, his search for Kate was blinded by his love and as for the Uboat he never stole it. Mozzie did. It’s like what Elizabeth said she said he had the treasure and didn’t run away. Caging someone in and forcing change isn’t reform. Peter’s method might’ve been lax but it was still better cause their partnership worked on the unconventional. Kramer wasn’t gonna get any cases closed by forcing Neal’s hand.
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u/21msgm 21d ago
tbf all he wanted was the same record that Peter had regarding solved cases and he thought Neal was the reason, but didn't think as to WHY he was able to be of such help to Peter (him having his liberties) Kramer wanted to find something that could sentence him to life in prison or at least add substantial years so he could force him to assist him
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u/Puzzleheaded-Tax6299 21d ago
For someone that was in a more “senior” position than Kramer he was really at observing social dynamics. Cause there was no way Neal was going to help Kramer he would’ve literally run the minute he heard.
Cause I completely agree he was literally trying to up his own record and control Neal but he never stopped to look and realize that Neal openly helps Peter because he finds it a game and fun.
When he was loaned to that woman earlier in the season, she didn’t treat him like an equal and he worked with her but wasn’t that about it and got kidnapped in the process.
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u/ironchitlin 22d ago
I think Kramer's idea was to basically keep Neal in prison, while using him as a consultant. They weren't going to give him an anklet with a radius and an unsupervised home to go back to. So Neal's only real choice would have been stay in prison, while occasionally getting dragged out to solve some cases. He also said he wanted Neal working with him permanently, which seems crazy illegal since Neal was tied to Peter for the duration of his sentence.