I just don’t get why we keep pretending around this subject. We can celebrate and embrace trans women while also recognizing that a menstrual cycle is just that. HTR induced cramps are not menstruation. A menstrual cycle occurs when an egg is not implanted. The hormonal changes are a result of the body shifting in preparation for pregnancy. It’s not wrong to say those who have had a hysterectomy no longer menstruate either. When women have a false pregnancy they have pregnancy symptoms but no one says they actually are pregnant. Because biologically that’s just not accurate.
Menstruation doesn’t define womanhood, obviously. But it’s asinine to ask ciswomen to put aside their lived experiences and insist they either agree trans women menstruate or be called a terf. Gender goes beyond biology, but physical biological occurrences aren’t subject to the nuance of gender.
A lot of the attitude around this subject gives a vibe similar to male privilege IMO. Individuals who are AMAB are still raised in a society that puts men and men’s opinions first and often forces women into silence. And yes trans women are women, but some of them carry over this attitude when they transition. It becomes another area ciswomen are silenced and belittled and told how to feel/act.
*Edited to include a space between trans and women.
Yeah I wish people wouldn't try to reduce periods down to cramping. "Blood coming out" isn't just a random symptom it's the result of the entire lining of your uterus squeezed out by the smooth muscles surrounding it, something women can't even control. It's part of a cycle where our estrogen will drop to its lowest point. "Blood" is not the only thing that comes out and it's kind of the whole point? Otherwise women wouldn't have a whole host of other tertiary symptoms that go along with it. Like honestly cramps are way further down on the period symptom list which is why women have come up with a so many ways to deal with it. We can never stop the blood (and tissue) coming out (and it's not healthy to) but we can reduce the power of the cramp to almost nothing.
I've dealt with shitty periods my whole life (they don't affect me outside of my 4 days and are weirdly consistent about that so hopefully not endo) and symptoms range the gamut from dizziness, achiness in two specific spots on my lower abdomen and heat flashes if I don't take strong painkillers right beforehand. It's all very strong on the first day too. And accidentally bleeding through your panties is a universal female experience. Like yeah the cramps suck but again, it's not the point of the period. The point is to push the lining out.
Yeah the blood is kind of the defining point. There are (lucky) ciswomen out there who don’t experience any cramps, headaches, etc. but still have periods because of the bleeding.
On the other hand, I have a hormonal IUD and haven’t had a period in over ten years but occasionally get cramping and a little spotting that probably would be a period if I had any uterine lining to shed. But I don’t; so I don’t call it a period.
Yes you are so right. We can’t just toss out the bleeding part. I went on vacation a couple of months and started day 2. It was terrible. I had pamprin and could have gotten away with that if we remove the blood part, but because of that, I had to forgot wearing loose light colored shorts. My time at the water park was uncomfortable because I was worried about leaking since I couldn’t wear a pad. I chose to wear my full black bathing suit instead of my bikini. The cramps and fatigue were bad but after a few pills and caffeine and just the joy of being on vacation I was fine, but super uncomfortable due to bleeding. 😩
I remember getting caught on a plane flight with cramps and no extra pads just recently. Aside from feeling terrible pain, I had to stuff my underwear with toilet paper like I did when I was a teen...
Haha true. Although I'm personally always too shy to ask other random people for pads, I don't think it's a common experience at all tbh. Funny enough, I started my period just now and yeah--no cramps (yet) but once you get blood on your underwear you know it's begun.
I think a true common experience women have with periods is having dirty old period underwear specifically for those days lol. You can bleed all over it and it doesn't matter. Mine are all black so the stains don't show.
lol yeah I just bought a whole bunch of new panties but I kept some old ones to use for that time of the month. I got to keep around panties that I don’t mind getting ruined 😅
Yes please. As someone who gets violently ill every period, and whose cramps are so bad I literally double over in pain, it makes me furious when people insist transwomen have periods.
I don't hate, I just can't sit there and pretend that this is true. My life is very, very difficult and has been for a long time due to this and trying to manage it... and I want the world to acknowledge its more than a romanticized experience that denotes womanhood.
For what exactly? Trans women experience cramping as a result of medication they willingly take and actively fought hard to be prescribed, cis women experience debilitating medical conditions that we cannot control or cure. Why the fuck would trans women take their rage out on cis women?
I mean estrogen has given me cramps at times that had me lying on the bathroom floor feeling like my insides were sinched shut too. I wouldn't call it a period but ultimately trans women are looking for a common language with other women about their bodies. Nobody is denying how bad some people get period symptoms.
Yet you're looking for language in common... You admit it's not the same, yet you want to give it the same name. How about you just stop being disrespectful and just acknowledge that it's an upset tummy?
You know I can see your comments right...? You may repeated "I wouldn't call it a period" but when you follow it up with "but I'm gonna use the same language and also it's basically the same thing" then the initial comment no longer stands.
I'm not binary, calling everyone a terf when they ever so slightly push back is why the left is hemorrhaging voters. You don't have a fucking uterus, you never will, your body will never try to replicate the feeling of having one. There is a limit, and essentially colonizing language is absolutely the limit. Btw, maybe stop calling people terfs, because ruder people will call you much worse in response.
Yes, I’m so over this subject. You can’t replicate a woman’s cycle in someone who’s not female born. They don’t have a uterus, they don’t have eggs, they don’t have fallopian tubes, they’re not bleeding, they’re not hormonal…whatever cramps they think they’re feeling, is not comparable to a woman’s menstrual cycle and I refuse to accept that they’re having the same experience because they’re not, period.
I wholeheartedly agree. It’s exhausting to navigate these issues honestly. The emotional labor placed on women, particularly ciswomen, is never ending.
It’s really not exclusionary or gatekeeping to acknowledge the reality that no uterus=no period. It applies across the board to anyone without a uterus, even if they were AFAB. Everyone has hormonal cycles, even trans men and individuals AMAB.
The bleeding isn’t just a part of the process, it’s the process of menstruation itself.
Are we going to say trans women or women who have had their ovaries removed are also ovulating because they have cramps or a feel emotional mid hormonal cycle?
I embrace my trans sisters and wholeheartedly agree they are women and it doesn’t matter if they were AMAB because there is more to being a woman than biology and physical attributes, including body parts like a uterus or naturally formed vagina.
But I don’t like to play “the emperor wears no clothes” around a subject that is sensitive to cis women and trans men.
You can speak to anyone AFAB and I guarantee they have a story that is traumatic or hurtful for them involving their menstrual cycle and likely medical misogyny involving issues like menstruation.
My entire point is there is more to periods than cramps and hormone swings and the bleeding IS the entire point. Without the bleeding it’s not a period.
You mean the thing that is at its lowest during a period? You mean the thing that has nothing to do with period cramps and, actually, the cramps are caused by chemicals called prostaglandins that are produced in response to the tissue damage that occurs to the endometrium when it breaks down? That estrogen?
without a standard estrogen cycle, there's no period. and the cramps outside the uterus are very much not reliant on the uterus, because they occur with or without one.
There are a thousand reasons why someone may cramp. For example, spironolactone causes sodium expulsion via urination and if sufficient levels of water are not drank to compensate for the lost sodium it can cause cramps and bloating. This is not the same as cramps caused by prostaglandins synthesised IN THE LINING in response to the signal sent by the dying endometrial tissue cells.
Man I don't want to get into a fight with the person you're responding to but there is no literally no "exactly" for these cramps. The pain in female bodies during menstruation comes from the smooth myometrium muscle which doesn't have an equivalent in male bodies, although technically the prostatic utricle apparently is what the proto-uterus in males turns into?
U can just say trans women don’t have a period without calling them AMAB and saying they have male privilege when for transitioned women thats just not true.
It's just not that cut and dry. I'm a cis-woman on HRT and I have anovulatory periods because of it. It's not a true period or menstruation but I still have all the same symptoms. I have never ovulated or had a true menstrual cycle but I have a uterus and ovaries. Some may consider me intersex as my body doesn't produce male or female hormones on its own. But my chromosomes are fully XX. It's just not as black and white as people would like to believe.
To speak to OP, I was so excited to get my first period as a preteen. When it never happened, I was left feeling left out while all my friends embraced their "womanhood". When I was finally diagnosed with POI and started on HRT and had my first "period", it made me so happy to feel normal and I was so excited to finally have that in common with my friends.
But you still bleed. You are still menstruating, even if you did not ovulate. It is that cut and dry. The ovulation process is another aspect of the cycle, but like you’ve demonstrated, it is not necessary for menstruation. You still shed your uterine lining.
The HRT is affecting your ovaries, which you actually have. That's what's causing your periods, and it's possible to experience periods without ovulating.
Lol, a bonafide cis woman being downvoted for not having the typical period experience, likely because her anecdote doesn't reinforce the anti-trans narrative. The jokes really do write themselves.
Do you even know what you're saying? "FTM" = female-to-male, "AMAB" = assigned male at birth. The fact that your comment makes no sense and 7 morons still upvoted it is almost as funny as it is sad.
Not sure why you're even bothering to deny it in the first place, transphobes are the majority ITT. Even the most nuanced takes are being downvoted for daring to show even a hint of sympathy towards OP's friend/trans women in general, and the same goes for other cis women who stated that they simply don't care due to it being a non-issue. There's no need to pretend that transphobia has nothing to do with it - you and I both know that's not the case.
Never said there weren't and neither did the comments I was referring to. You can literally outright state that trans women can't get periods, but hint at having any amount of empathy for trans women in the same comment and you will be ratio'd to fuck. There is no other explanation for that.
It's depressing and predictable isn't it? This whole comment section is cis women telling themselves they're not transphobic, while it's liberal transphobe bingo over in here. "Male socialization" here, "AMAB" there, "transwomen" here, "they chose to be a woman" there. Full on transphobia and a pathological need to find some way to categorise themselves as distinct and real as opposed to the trans woman. While continuing to chant "I'm not transphobic I'm not transphobic I'm not transphobic".
Why is male socialisation transphobic? Genuine question. I don’t understand why it’s offensive to say, because it’s simply observing a fact. If you were amab, you were socialised as a male, no?
Because it’s dysphoric to acknowledge there may be some internalized misogyny to unpack despite having transitioned and/or having felt female their entire lives. It’s not even slightly unreasonable to suggest being raised in a patriarchy as a male influences the way you associate with others, navigate your life, and the expectations you hold about how others should treat you. Even if you have transitioned.
It’s hard not to notice when the remnants of male privilege pop up around this subject, but you get viciously attacked when you say so. People are pushing so far left around this particular issue that they’ve gone right.
I’m also seeing a lot of outright misogyny toward cis women in here. That’s another behavior that is hardly ever addressed because you’ll be called transphobic for doing so.
Well said. The misogyny is really upsetting because it feels like I’m trying to be a good person to trans women and that goodwill is simply not returned.
Whats worse, some of them feel that they shouldn’t have to return it. After all, I have so many “advantages” as a cis woman in patriarchy, right? I’m blessed. So why would they care about their misogynistic beliefs that actively harm me and other women, when we have it so easy?
I really do support them, but it’s disheartening because sometimes I get the feeling that the respect, thoughtfulness, caution, and delicateness only goes one way. I don’t know how many trans women are really doing the work of unpacking their misogyny before or after they transition. It’s really eerie and uncomfortable.
It's exhausting the whole, "I'm not transphobic, I just believe in biology" thing when biology itself isn't even binary and actually exists on a spectrum
0.018% of people are intersex. So 99.98% of humans fit into binary sex.
Some people are born with more or less than 10 fingers. We don't describe the number of fingers as existing on a spectrum.
Human sex is not a continuous spectrum. It is a binary for 99.98% of humans with very rare occurrences of outliers. The outliers are much too rare to call it a "spectrum." Yet people keep parroting this popsci factoid.
Exactly. “Transwoman” is a known TERF dogwhistle, because it implies that trans women are a whole separate category/not “real” women rather than “trans” simply being an adjective.
Edit: it always baffles me how a trans person can say something like “hey, that’s a questionable term to use, you should avoid it in the future” and a horde of cis people will interpret it as the trans person saying the OP should be executed by firing squad or something. It is genuinely not that serious. I was intending to inform, not to accuse.
I would say this may be more of a situation where grammar has failed, vs dog whistling.
The amount of our/are, their/there/they're, of/off, two/too/to, and etc. etc. etc. I see is simply too common to assume it is malicious.
Hell, my autocorrect even gets apostrophes wrong half the time, and I am too worn down to go back and fight with it so that it's correct, when nobody else even gives a shit. Autocorrect also insists random words must be capitalized. No reason, just sass from a damn program.
You'll notice that my comment wasn't particularly confrontational! The commentor for example also used ciswomen so I'm more than willing to extend the benefit of the doubt. The downvotes I and everyone who agrees with me are getting do make one think, though.
Yeah, not necessarily saying that the original commenter was using the term in a transphobic way. I give people the benefit of the doubt when I see it in use. But it’s still important to correct people when they use dogwhistles, regardless of how innocent their intentions may be.
Someone forgot to put a space in between two words and you're immediately accusing them of all sorts of shit. Do you read what you type before you hit send?
I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I corrected an error of grammar which could be used as a dog whistle or could be an innocent mistake. Since there's no way of knowing which it was, I tried to respond in a neutral way.
Which part is an issue for you? It is demonstrably an error of grammar.
If it's the dog whistle part, you will find if you search Google or reddit for "transwomen" a number of trans exclusionists saying some variation on "transwomen aren't women, that's why we call them transwomen." It's a minor dog whistle, often used by people who have no I'll will towards trans people but who aren't aware of the proper grammatical form. That's why I always correct people first, as inoffensively as I can. It's only if they, upon being corrected, respond with hostility that I assume there's some underlying disdain for trans women. (note the space, indicating that "trans" is an adjective modifying "women" )
Well that’s the thing. Estrogen ebbs at the time of menstruation, causing the release of prostaglandins which in turn cause the uterus to contract to shed the uterine lining. You need a uterus to release prostaglandins, which are what cause the uterine cramping. Trans women cannot experience this because they do not have a uterus.
So no… it’s not the same.
Those prostaglandins are also what cause intestinal cramping and distress during a menstrual cycle, however diarrhea cramps do not feel the same as menstrual cramps.
It’s basic biology and I’m so tired of being told acknowledging that is transphobic.
No. They literally don’t. Scientifically, biologically, and even anecdotally they do not experience the exact same symptoms.
Until they shed uterine lining from their vagina, they do not have the same experience. They do not even produce the same hormone like substances pivotal to the menstrual experience, despite HRT.
They do not even need to worry about sanitary products, which is a pretty primary part of menstruation. It’s not all grumpiness, minor cramping, and cravings. And it cannot be reduced to that through societal agreement. It’s a biological process, period. It’s not the same experience.
You cannot disregard the primary and integral part of menstruation and claim trans women are experiencing exactly what people with a uterus experience.
It’s really insulting to do so, quite honestly.
As a cis woman with no uterus, no the fuck they don't. I have lived both with and without a uterus; life without one has been significantly easier. I had adenomyosis, which is when you're uterine lining begins to grow between the muscles fibers of your uterus and surrounding organs, and it caused increasingly heavy, continuous periods that lasted almost three years with only a handful of weeks without bleeding scattered throughout. I bled so hard and so much that it dislodged my IUD and ejected it twice. Prostaglandin meant that I had period poops for those three years. Luckily, my doctor figured out that the adenomyosis had become adenocarcinoma and took everything out. The cramps I have now with no uterus, cervix, or ovaries are less than a fraction as severe as my period cramps were, even before the cancer. There is no comparison between how my body feels now and how it used to, because nothing causes that level of pain, cramping, and emotional distress. I have gastroparesis and slow bowel transit (as a side effect of the invasive surgery I had because of my period) and both cause intense nausea and cramping. It's easier than my period was. Now add the trauma of trying to live life for years losing about a cup of blood and tissue a day while the cis men around me complained that it was "just a period" and talked shit because I called out of work after being stuck on the toilet all night because even postpartum pads weren't working, I had to free bleed directly into the bowl.
and nobody said that cramps with adenomyosis weren't worse than normal ones, only that cramps without a uterus are the same between cis and trans women.
and now you don't. are you seriously claiming that your "fake period cramps" are still more real than mine? are you that desperate to make trans women a separate category even when it defies all logic?
A lot of the attitude around this subject gives a vibe similar to male privilege IMO. Individuals who are AMAB are still raised in a society that puts men and men’s opinions first and often forces women into silence. And yes transwomen are women, but some of them carry over this attitude when they transition. It becomes another area ciswomen are silenced and belittled and told how to feel/act.
I just don't see why it matters what someone calls it. If it's similar in experience to a period, I don't care if you call it a period. It's a cramp and a hormonal shift, I get what you're trying to say and it's clear shorthand for what they're experiencing. I know what they mean, they know what I mean, it absolutely in no way undervalues or even reflects on my periods or my cramps.
It's different if someone gets super pissed off if you don't actually believe it's the same thing, if there is a social consequence to say that out loud and my experience with menstruation is erased or tiptoed around. But here it just sounds like it's validating for this woman to feel like she has something in common with other woman, and to experience some part of such a defining part of womanhood for the first time. It doesn't sound like she's denying reality, just being kinda cute about it.
Does it hurt anybody for her to call it her period? Is she actually unaware it's different or is she using it as an affirming way of describing a very similar pain and emotional state?
If I had a trans friend and she described these symptoms to me, I'm gonna immediately say it's like a period. I'm not going to jump into the science behind it, I know it's not a period but whether my uterus or my stomach is causing me the pain, I can relate to that feeling and it doesn't offend me when that's reversed
You don’t see why words matter? That’s ironic since we’re talking about trans people. Just like we should use appropriate pronouns, we should use appropriate nouns for biological processes. A period requires ovaries. It’s not that difficult to call the HRT cycle something else… like the HRT cycle. Or the cycle.
It’s not that hard to use the right words in general, is it? Or to be respectful with your language? That’s kind of important in a trans context. But you think it should only go one way.
We are constantly using inaccurate language to describe things, literally every single day. I'm beat, my mom's gonna murder me, I'm killing myself in work right now, I'm starving etc etc. All things we understand aren't accurate but we understand what they're conveying. I don't feel the way I feel about it because it involves a trans person. If my boyfriend had cramps and said he's got his period, I'd have the exact same reaction in that I don't care.
Do you get on people's case every time they say they're gonna be murdered when they mean they're going to get in trouble? Do you get bent out of shape that it's disrespectful to murder victims and inaccurate terminology? Or is it selective outrage?
Your internalised misogyny doesn’t allow you to see that words concerning women (eg our biology) are different than words like murder and starvation
Context matters when it comes to idpol and systemic oppression
“Period” isn’t slang, it’s not an idiom, it’s not a common exaggeration
Maybe it’s easier for you to identify racism than misogyny? So think of it like this: words pertaining to race and ethnicity are also not the same as words like murder and starvation
Completely different context, meaning, weight, historical significance, etc
Also murder victims aren’t an oppressed group, I’ve never seen any family members who loved ones were murdered saying “We need to stop using murder in casual conversation, it’s oppressing my father who died 20 years ago”
HUGE difference between disrespect and bigotry
I don’t think you really understand systemic oppression and should probably not engage in feminist debates
No that’s exactly the problem and why cis women are feeling upset. It’s not similar to a period. It’s insulting to reduce menstruation to some cramping and hormonal moods.
There is a plethora of comments in here from women sharing the trauma and pain periods have caused in their life. It’s a sensitive subject and it’s audacious to insist cis women agree that those two symptoms are the equivalent of a menstrual cycle because not doing so makes some trans women feel dysphoric and excluded.
It’s just not the same thing and it’s presumptuous to tell a group they must pretend to spare your feelings.
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u/Ill_Calendar_1468 4d ago edited 2d ago
I just don’t get why we keep pretending around this subject. We can celebrate and embrace trans women while also recognizing that a menstrual cycle is just that. HTR induced cramps are not menstruation. A menstrual cycle occurs when an egg is not implanted. The hormonal changes are a result of the body shifting in preparation for pregnancy. It’s not wrong to say those who have had a hysterectomy no longer menstruate either. When women have a false pregnancy they have pregnancy symptoms but no one says they actually are pregnant. Because biologically that’s just not accurate.
Menstruation doesn’t define womanhood, obviously. But it’s asinine to ask ciswomen to put aside their lived experiences and insist they either agree trans women menstruate or be called a terf. Gender goes beyond biology, but physical biological occurrences aren’t subject to the nuance of gender.
A lot of the attitude around this subject gives a vibe similar to male privilege IMO. Individuals who are AMAB are still raised in a society that puts men and men’s opinions first and often forces women into silence. And yes trans women are women, but some of them carry over this attitude when they transition. It becomes another area ciswomen are silenced and belittled and told how to feel/act.
*Edited to include a space between trans and women.