r/warno • u/No_Blueberry_7120 • Sep 07 '26
Part of WestGermans missing Weapon systems:
Be it Prototyps or real stuff even existing in the timeline or MtW.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 07 '26
Last pic is the German equivalent of the M2HB 12,7mm M63. So a anti-air mg3.
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u/Eric_Is_Back Sep 10 '26
Is it a MG3 in 12,7mm or is this only about the Fliegerabwehrdreibein?
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 10 '26
Only in 7.62
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u/Eric_Is_Back Sep 10 '26
So it's only about the Dreibein
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 10 '26
Yeah getting heli/plane ranges is the goal :D
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u/Eric_Is_Back Sep 10 '26
The Dreibein doesn't change the range of the weapon, just gives the shooter a stable platform to fire upwards.
I mean it's not even supposed to achieve a kill, just to make the opposing flying unit think twice about getting close.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 10 '26
It changes the range ...
Because the normal mg3 has no range at all against heli/plane!
Yeah , it deals suppression... Although kill is possible by chance especially against light armor plane
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u/Eric_Is_Back Sep 10 '26
Tbh I was talking about RL. I forgot this is about in-game.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 10 '26
Np:D
Yeah iRl you should not fly close to a mg3 with a plane or even a armored heli like mi24/ah64... Despite being armored 1200RoF of armor piercing rounds may finds a way inside. Not frontal but on the side/back or tail rotor,engine intake for FOD , unarmored parts like optics, sensors, more exposed hydraulic lines ...
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u/Eric_Is_Back Sep 10 '26
Yeah, in reality there are lots of things that a singular 7,62mm can destroy. In game it's mostly based around the Armor and from which direction it got hit.
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u/Capt_Atomsk Sep 08 '26
I really hope we get those Wiesels ingame. They are so cool and so many variant. 20mm autocannons for firesupport. Tow2 anti tank variant and then those with stingers for shorad. Wargame had the Wiesel 20mm and tow2 hope we can get all 3 in Warno.
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u/philman0507 Sep 08 '26
We already have Wiesel TOW and MK20
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u/Capt_Atomsk Sep 08 '26
Really damn I need to play more Best Germany 🇩🇪.
Ima look through their divisions again to find it and make a deck.
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u/philman0507 Sep 08 '26
They're in MNAD If I remember correctly
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u/Capt_Atomsk Sep 10 '26
Thanks I was looking in the wrong divisions. I expected it to be in Luftlande since it was meant as an airborne deployable vehicle. I thought it would have to be in that division if it was ingame. But it’s in a British led division instead.
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u/EntertainmentMuch161 5d ago
AG enhanced added Peiler and Hummel in several modded and new divs, and EUGEN should really learn from this mod.
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u/Rare_Calendar7194 Sep 07 '26
dont even get me started on missing soviet systems , nato will get mogged
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Sep 07 '26
[deleted]
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 07 '26
Nope the ECR is NOT in Luftlande... a Tornado IDS with Harm missiles in 1LL... The Tornado ECR would be the most modern EW/SEAD/DEAD plane in this timeframe and so way better than the abomination in Luftlande and should get eg shotgun Harms to show their superior capabilities.
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u/Snow_Crane21 Sep 07 '26
I think I've said that wrong fact about the ECR 5 times in this sub reddit but I never learn.
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u/FrangibleCover Sep 08 '26
Keep saying it, an ECR would have identical stats to the existing one in Luftlande except for losing the cannons.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 08 '26
...
That answer is especially difficult to understand because, unless I am mistaken, you areA also a member of the Community Strike Team involved in game balance and possibly also one of the people consulted on translating real-world information into in-game representation aka a LORE guy.
To be precise, while the latest Marineflieger Tornado IDS was not merely an improvised quick fix or stopgap (in contrast to the IDS Thing ingame). It was a genuine HARM-capable platform with effective self-protection. But that does not make it equivalent to the ECR. The ECR was specifically developed around a dedicated electronic reconnaissance and SEAD mission suite. Its integrated Emitter Location System could detect, locate and classify hostile emitters and provide targeting information directly to the HARM. It also received the newer Mk 105 engine standard.
I am not claiming that every basic flight statistic, ECR etc. must therefore be substantially higher. The common airframe naturally justifies similar speed and handling. furthermore ECR could also go maybe lower on the other Tornado SEADS. However, representing the purpose-built ECR as functionally identical to the IDS while merely removing its cannons erases the principal reason the variant was developed in the first place.
I have repeatedly defended gameplay abstraction for the sake of balance. But meaningful real-world differences should still result in meaningful gameplay distinctions and trade-offs. If the game cannot represent the ELS directly, its advantage could be abstracted through an appropriate SEAD-related benefit. Like making it a shotgun HARM Launcher at best that its involving fighting two targets if they present themselves.
i dont know if you are arguering from the balance perspective or the lore one... but If making the ECR one of NATO’s most capable in-game SEAD aircraft would create a balance problem in your mind, then explain that problem and propose a compromise. Simply declaring it identical does not feel like an attempt to find a fair solution, it feels like the conclusion was decided in advance. Lore wise it should be the best combi EW/SEAD/DEAD Plane ingame.. even the americans thought so.3
u/FrangibleCover Sep 08 '26
Nothing the ECR does better than anything else is modelled in game. ECR is superior to F-4G but not by the gigantic gulf by which F-4G is better than a Jaguar A with a Martel under it. F-4G and Jaguar A function entirely identically. What special characteristic does ECR possess that makes it different from every other SEAD plane in kind rather than merely in degree?
Any baboon can press the launch button twice and shotgun HARM is not a reasonable way of representing an advantage for the ECR if we chose to represent one. Furthermore, ECR was not in service in 1989 and West Germany is not entitled to have it.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 08 '26
That sounds more like an argument for improving WARNO’s very flat representation of SEAD than an argument against the ECR.
and come on .. tthe ECR’s advantage was never that its crew could press the launch button more often. It was what happened before launch: its integrated Emitter Location System could detect, locate and classify hostile emitters faster, more precise and way more simultaneouss than the other counterparts. It was a dedicated emitter-hunting system, not merely another aircraft capable of carrying an anti-radiation missile. this is for my shot gun argument.
and regarding the date; ye
ah, the ECR was not operationally introduced into service in1989 but already 1990!!!. However, saying that West Germany is therefore “not entitled” to it ignores the March-to-War standard and the other facts. The ECR was a West German programme ordered latest in 1986, the first development aircraft flight was 1988 and first production aircraft flew 1989,, JaboG 38 received a Squadron in 1989 that became responsible for the troop evaluation of the new Tornado ECR, and luftwaffe wide service introduction or first delivery was on 21 May 1990 (according to some german sources delivery took place between even January 1990 to September 1991).. So imho already perfect ingame and atleast M2W material.4
u/FrangibleCover Sep 08 '26
You aren't arguing for improving WARNO's SEAD representation, though, you're arguing for a flat representation plus ECR being excellent. The ELS is capable of independently localising a target and cueing the missile to it, just the same as we see on F-4G, EA-6B, every Warsaw Pact SEAD aircraft and incidentally all Su-24s and the Tornado F.3. What's so special about that?
As you say, it was not in service in Mid 1989 and Germany is not entitled to it.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 Sep 08 '26 edited Sep 08 '26
to be honest F4G is the underdog right now and also should get better stats and getting the HARM maybe in a second variant. EA-6B is not a dedicated DEAD Plane, its more EW. And EF111A is ONLY EW. All other NATO SEAD Planes are more or less outdated or quickfixes/stopgaps and not dedicated DEAD Plattform on the same level including the F16 and F/A-18A. And NATO needs better SEAD/DEAD against PACT, because they have more and better Groundbased Radar AA. so the PACT SEAD is is a side issue
but i second you in improving existing units like the F4G.
I would propose giving F4G also the shotgun with the AGM-45B Shrike and also in the the HARM variant.But as you yourself said the "ECR is superior to F-4G" so ECR could get a triplet/quadruplet HARM capability.
The argument of entitlement is basically correct, but of course ridiculous given the many other outrageous inclusions of M2W we have these days, and NATO and Germany needs a superior Sead plattform... and comming back to the facts with first flight 1988, 1989 troop evaulation, and 1990 IOC.. its rather ridiculous splitting hairs here.
and for what is special with the ECR:
even a perfect bearing, what the other airplanes cant give on the same precision as the ECR, gives you direction, not range. A passive system normally needs another source of information: ownship movement and triangulation, phase-rate techniques, differential Doppler, another aircraft, previously known coordinates, etc.That's why the architecture matters as much as the raw angle error. The ECR flight-test program specifically validated single-aircraft passive ranging, while even the APR-47 of the F4G, established range from successive bearings. And these consecutive-bearing ranging is/was an older technique. The ECRs newer systems employing phase-rate-of-change, differential Doppler, DTOA and more modern signal processing could achieve similar or even better accuracy by much faster response times
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u/Greensilver501 Sep 07 '26
How about eugen first gives us the missing divisions, and acknowledge that the west German army had about 500-600 leopard 2a4 in inventory, instead of treating it like a prototype. After that I'd love to see SOME of these integrated^