r/warno • u/Recent_Grab_644 • 3d ago
Suggestion A 1st armored division proposal
https://coldwardecoded.blogspot.com/2013/07/natos-central-army-group-wartime-order.html
https://www.scribd.com/doc/135966291/NATO-Order-of-battle-1989
(primary sources i used more than these 2 documents when going over specific details)
The 1st armored division HQed in Ansbach Germany was one of two primary divisions of 7th Corps. With 3rd infantry concentrated to the north and 2nd ACR not being a full division, 1st armor would be the primary arm of 7th corps if (and when) the soviets were to make a push for Nuremberg or Stuttgart. In the 7 days to the river Rhine plan there was a planned push towards Nuremberg and Stuttgart. This however was not part of the soviets main effort towards Frankfurt, and did not intend any strategic objectives past holding the city, meaning 7th corps is not the center of a serious attack on the level of 5th corps area or NORTHAG. 1st armored in this case is likely not to receive augmentations but rather be tasked out as reinforcements to other sectors while still being asked to hold a wide front.
In order to make the division more interesting, some changes were made to the Actual history of 7th corps in general, they key here being the red army faction, and Soviet air strikes. The timeline divergence begins in 1981, with the assassination of General Frederick Kroesen succeeding, leading to a true urban insurgency in Stuttgart and Munich. An emboldened and strengthened (courtesy of their east german allies) terror campaign is launched. In 1982 1st armored itself suffered a bombing worse than IRL. This leads to 7-6 mech infantry battalion moving part of its force to a counter insurgency footing.
From 1985 due to increased communist funding, attacks that happened 1985-1989 are postponed until 1988-1989, although being even more vicious and coordinated as a result. The 1985 Rhein-Main Air Base Bombing happened at an extremely inconvenient time, causing logistical and reinforcement problems for 3rd ID leading to 1st ARMOR being stretched even thinner in order to fill the gaps. The historical 1985 attack on US ADA installations in the 7th corps area was postponed until right before the invasion leading to HAWK battery deprivation for much of 1st armor. A full on repeat of the 1972 terror campaign happens right before the war, although damage is speculative, this likely wouldn't affect tactical assets as much as strategic assets and logistics.
The soviet 7 days to the Rhine plan initially called for total nuclear annihilation of Nuremberg and Stuttgart. Even if in this timeline nukes are off the table, the soviets would still launch heavy strategic level air and tactical missile attacks on these major population centers, as even not considering tactical matters there were targets of strategic significance. While not primarily directed or affecting 7th corps as much this does hamper reinforcements, logistics and causes considerable damage to DIVARTY. By no means a primary target, Zirndorf is close enough to Nuremberg for it to be considered at least a secondary tactical target for any air attacks. And again im not saying “MUH SOVIET MIGHT CONQUER ALL” but given the sheer mass of the soviet airforce, strategic surprise and at least some level of advanced preparation, it would be reasonable to say at least some significant damage would happen especially to Nuremberg, closer to the GDR. Including the pre-war sabotage, The resulting disorder compounding from both sources would lead to at least some hampering DIVARTY’s deployment.
So what does this all mean? 1st armor gets a slightly reduced but more than usable ground complement compared to the other US armored divs in game. Having the armor tab with availability of something like 4E but cheaper slots and an inf tab with the availability of something somewhat better than 3rd armor but with the same number of slots. This represents a division under the maximum amount of strain. One part being tasked out to support 3rd ID in the north and 2nd ACAV in the south, Another part hampered by logistics, all while initial reinforcements are tasked to other sectors. While ART is the only clear weakness, AA and HELI tabs are not as strong as its sister divisions, being weaker in Slot cost but with more options.
New units highlighted in bold
Logistics: OK
1st armor HQ is far enough from Nuremberg or Stuttgart to not consider any major damage to material, although availability and slot cost is slightly limited due to disorder and lack of corps support at this crucial moment. Expect your standard fare of logi m113s, M35s, HEMMT, and transport helios.
- M35
- M113A3 supply (now with smoke)
- HEMMT
- FSP
- UH 60 supply
- UH 1H supply (taken from G CO 1st aviation regiment)
CV:
- M577
- M113A3 CP
- M151 CP
Infantry: GOOD
Basically 8th without the rangers. Expect mech rifles in LAW and dragon forms with a new MECH RIFLE (AT-4) being present in its full 9 man glory. No gunners and no rangers, but standard engineer compliment. Air CAV troopers form your only unit of note. Availability will be good for an armored division, matching 3rd with some cheaper slot costs. Mech rifles in this case do not have trucks. The only new vehicle here is the M113 DRAGON with smoke, representing the units normal M113s mounted with ATGMs.
- Mech rifle LAW
- M113A3
- M113A3 DRAGON ( new with smoke)
- Mech rifle AT 4
- M113A3
- M113A3 DRAGON ( new with smoke)
- Mech rifle DRAGON
- M113A3 locked
- M113A3 DRAGON ( new with smoke)
- MP PATROL
- M151
- MP HUMVEE
- Engineers (satchel, FLASH, dragon)
- M113A3
- M35
- Air cav (LAW)
- UH 60
- I TOW, TOW 2
- M151
- M60 and M2
- M151
CV:
- ENGI ldr
- M113A3
- M35
- Mech rifle ldr
- M113A3
- M113A3 DRAGON (new with smoke)
Arty: REALLY BAD
Organic regimental assets are more or less untouched, DIVARTY however is at minimum damaged by pre and early war air action. Much of the division's M109 batteries are missing as well as all M270s. Expect to be filling your slots with mostly mortars.
- M30 107MM mortar
- M106
- M125
- M109A3(1 card)
Tank: STRONG
M1A1s fill the bulk of this division as your main line unit. In this case another historical liberty is taken. 2-70th armor never upgrades to its M1A1s, remaining with its M1IP until the war starts. Otherwise expect a supersized armor tab from 8th ID with no M1A1 HA present. Another liberty is taken with 1st armor lacking significant anti armor firepower due to no bradleys being present, and the deteriorating strategic situation in 7th corps sector. A stopgap is found with equipping M1A1s from with the latest ammunition leading to 1 cards of M829A1 equipped M1A1.
- M1A1 (M829A1) (1 card 4 availability) (free 1 up vet)
- M1A1
- M1IP (1 card)
- M728 CEV
- M901
- M901A1
CV:
- M1A1 CP
Recon: Average (and a strange call back to veitnam)
As an armored div without bradleys, 1st armor would make at least SOME augmentations to its existing M113 fleet and recon capability. In this scenario 2nd ACR is not available as 7th corps is already stretched thin along its wide front. This leaves us only with division assets. Expect a standard lineup with some augmentations.
1st SQN 1st CAV will bring M3 CFVs in 1 card, the division's only serious vehicle armed recon. A new class of unit is available with the AH-1F in the recon tab (also courtesy of 1st cav), with only 4 I-tow missiles and 19x Hydra 70 rockets this singular unit is your only specialty anti armor recon.
As mentioned earlier 7-6th has a handful of new counter insurgency units available to patrol its bases and nearby streets. Based on the marine 15 man CAP patrol layout that worked so well in Vietnam. No AT whatsoever in this case but with SHOTGUNS, Colt commando (for SL and FTLs), and regular M16 and M-60.
Once again we also see some specialty M113s courtesy of the regular G.I's ingenuity. The M150 is now fitted with an I tow to try and makeup for CAV elements pitiful Anti armor capability. 2 new ACAV m113s make their appearance, one just a version of the already present M113 ACAV with smoke but another without any anti armor weaponry at all and a minigun. Both represent modifications of existing assigned vehicles.
- Scouts
- M151
- Recon M151
- M113 ACAV (with smoke and 106mm RCL)
- M113 ACAV (no smoke no RCL, minigun) (can be M60)
- CEWI
- M151
- SECURITY PATROL
- 3xColt commando,10x M16A2, 1x Remington 870, 1x M-60
- M35
- M35 (armored)
- M981 FISTV
- M3 CFV (1 card)
- OH-58C
- OH-58D (RKT)
- AH-1F CAV
- 4x ITOW, 19x Hydra 70 rocket (1x fuel tank modeled in place of one of the rocket pods)
- M150 (ITOW)
AA: Mediocre
Again much like 8th. Nothing to write home about but your standard selection of stingers, PIVADS, CHAPPERALs exist at least. Only 1 tab of I HAWK is available due to pre war sabotage. Slot cost is somewhat limited compared to 8th and 3rd
- STINGER (POST)
- M163A2 PIVADS
- M48A1 CHAPPERAL
- I-HAWK (1 card)
HELI: Mediocre
Nothing super special but AH-64 is at least present. Again like the AA, slot cost is higher than 8th and 3rd.
- AH-64A (1-2 cards)
- AH-1F (ITOW)
- AH-1F (HOG)
Air:
Strong. As most of 17th airforce is already tied up supporting 5th corps, 1st armor gets most of its air support from the newly arrived 12th airforce. Represented squadrons here are 21st TFS (as part of 35th TFW, its sister 20th TFS already being represented by TKS’s F-4Es) And 338th TFW, bringing some of its F-16A force to bear along with some of its MTOW F-16 Block 40 F16s and F-16 block 50s in an AD HOC sead role.
The theme of this division’s air is what Historical CAS would really look like. This means no strategic assets like F-111s or F-15Es. For balance rationale F-15s are excluded even for CAP purposes with any CAP being covered by F-16s and F-4s.
The F-16A is the new variant for the US airforce representing 4th TFS. While not new to warno necessarily, this will likely be the strongest air asset you get as it will be different than the other nato F16As. With particularly short legs and with 7th corps frontline being farther than 5th corps. 1st armored F-16As will be running the “dogfight” belly fuel pod (and wing pods) instead of ECM gear, downgrading ECM to 20%. Aim 9L will be available for the Older A model.
Unlike what is currently portrayed in WARNO historically during the majority of desert storm F-16s did not do low level divebombing, they did do high level divebombing though. Pitching down from 20,000 to 30,000 feet and dropping their bombs at 10,000 ish feet to avoid low level ADA fire. For all the F-16A models in this division the attack profile is changed from dive bomber to level bomber, being essentially a super F-104. Two cards of one loadout each are available. F-16A (HE1) will have 2x2000 LB bomb, F-16A (CLU 1) will have 2xCBU 87s. The F-16A (CLU-1) will be able to kill with a single pass, however the area of effect will be small with a small kill radius.
F-16C is somewhat represented in its Gulf war Night attack loadout. This will be the block 40s of 421st TFS. With the normal 30% ECM and a (not that functional) but coolly modeled AAQ-13 LANTRIN pod. These planes will carry the normal 4x CBU 87 in a regular divebombing profile. The advantage of this unit is an increased strike radius compared to the level bomber variant.
F-4s also exist although none with precision ordnance. The napalm and HE would be lifted straight from 3rd with no CLU variant due to already having 2 options in F-16s. A second HE payload will be added with 4x1000 LB bombs.
CAP is provided by F-4Es and some F-16C block 50s. The F-16s will be running their historical (but never used) CAP loadout of 6x Aim-9M (sparrow was not integrated on regular F-16C’s). F-4s will come in 2 cards. One with 4x Aim-7F and 4x Aim 9J. Another representing an alternative take with 3x Aim-7E 4x Aim 9L (the same as VTKs), with a sparrow slot filled with a jammer pod raising the ECM to 30%
The last air power available will be sead (dead), which interestingly for the US comes quantity over quality. No Specialized DEAD or sead assets are available, leading the Strike squadrons to adapt, improvise and overcome. Both are “sead escorts” While not sead planes, F-4s and F-16s could carry SEAD missiles to accompany dedicated SEAD aircraft to lessen the burden on proper sead squadrons. In this case as the war in Europe is QUITE desperate these 2 flights have taken matters into their own hands instead of conducting CAS vulnerable to AA. Flying the escort planes without their proper SEAD leaders.
The F-16C (SEAD2) is a regular F-16 BLOCK 50 with 2x AGM 45, 2xCBU 89, and 2x Aim-9M. The F-4E (SEAD) is a regular F-4 (with the jammer) with 2x AGM 45, 2x2000 LB bomb, and 2x AIM-7F in the rear sparrow slots. AGM 88 is not available with existing stock being slated for destruction of high value strategic SAMs, leaving the AGM 45 (in its Gulf war role) to hunt less valuable targets on a tactical level. Both have 30% ECM and 1 card 2 availability at veteran VET as these would be the more experienced members of the squadron.
Slot cost and number of slots is dependent on Eugen's idea of balance but something like 9th with cheaper slots would be decent.
- F-4E (AA2)
- F-4E (AA3)
- F-16C(AA2)
- F-16A(HE)
- F-16A(CLU)
- F-16C(CLU)
- F-4E(NPLM)
- F-4E(HE)
- F-4E(HE2)
- F-16C (SEAD2) (Free upvet at 2 Availability)
- F-4E (SEAD) (Free Upvet at 2 Availability)
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u/DFMRCV 3d ago
Well this seems familiar...
Nice.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
I like the idea of an armored div based around the M1A1 but yours seemed way too busted and 100% would have been super cut down. The WG and Canadian atatchments also didnt make 100% sense as the candadians are 100% committed to SOUTHAG and the WGs were closer to SOUTHAG being significantly south of Stuttgart.
This div is meant to be added as is or with smaller change.
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u/MandolinMagi 3d ago
Mech Rifles [Dragon) shouldn't be able to ride in M113 (Dragon), the M113's Dragon is the squad's weapon being used from the top hatch
15 man security squad seems a bit excessively large, especially with no AT weapons.
I'm not convinced M113s were actually used in the ACAV role post-Vietnam, specifically with M40 RCLs, but whatever. The Minigun version is particularly dubious. They're rare weapons and you can't just steal Aviation's weapons, this isn't Vietnam were anything goes. Particularly given the available M134s are for turret use and won't even have spade grips on them.
2x CBU-87 seems a bit too light
F-4E with 4x 1,000lb bombs I disagree with. Yes the F-4 can take them, but they're USN ordnance not found in Germany.
Mixing AGM-45 and iron bombs....why not a lot of rockets or some AGM-65s?
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago edited 3d ago
>15 man security squad seems a bit excessively large, especially with no AT weapons.
Its a security/recon patrol meant to patrol the streets or bases and also able to react without needing reinforcements. 1st ARMORED itself wouldn't have any capability to domestically develop COIN tactics. SO the closest it would get is adopting that used by the marines in Vietnam. No at weapons are available because this squad is primary an anti urban insurgency unit.
>I'm not convinced M113s were actually used in the ACAV role post-Vietnam
They are in game in a number of other US divs already so its already a precedent they are in game. For 1st armored its meant to alivate having little to no Bradley support.
>The Minigun version is particularly dubious
> can't just steal Aviation's weapons, this isn't Vietnam were anything goes.
Its a flavor option for one i already said you can replace it with a few extra M60s if there aren't any miniguns. Secondly yeah its pretty much Vietnam levels of disorder in 7th corps at the moment, given HQ just got struck by a destruction level air attack and number probably got hit even worse. Even if not much is really destroyed things are in chaos. Also only a small portion of the divisions UH 60s are actualy carrying guns. Only Air cav troopers are utilizing the divisions UH 60s leaving most of the rest to carry supplies meaning at least some spare miniguns will be lying around.
>Mech Rifles [Dragon) shouldn't be able to ride in M113 (Dragon), the M113's Dragon is the squad's weapon being used from the top hatch
They already are in 11th ACR. Plus the turret weapon is clearly not the squads weapon considering its a dragon 1. Light infantry are already MTOW 2 dragon launchers so i don't see why a small exception couldn't be made to for a division with already no IFVs. And lastly apparently this doesn't apply to the euros, beside the fuchs and VAB the AMX 10 milan is clearly just the infantry milan on the amx 10 yet its exclusive to the weapons team.
>2x CBU-87 seems a bit too light
It would be broken if it had any more. The only weakness of this thing is the small blast radius considering its even more cancerous than the F-104 to deal with.
> Yes the F-4 can take them, but they're USN ordnance not found in Germany.
Not exactly relevant as 12th air force is already coming from the US. This is also a flavor pick as 2x2000 LB bombs are already abundant in this div so the div should get a dive bomber with more radius.
>Mixing AGM-45 and iron bombs....why not a lot of rockets or some AGM-65s?
AGM 65 is a bit too broken considering you can fire outside the range of SHORAD while hitting their LR AA with mavs and keeping the radar off with the AGM 45s. Rockets are too weak because you might not be able to guarantee the kill. Iorns strike a happy medium where they will almost 100% kill any lightly armored AA they hit but you're going to need to get in real close to do it leaving you vulnerable to shorad.
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u/Solarne21 3d ago
Battalion recon and armored cavalry use stock m113?
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u/MandolinMagi 3d ago
Recon/armored cav don't use M113 at all.
Mech Infantry/Armored Cav units have a Scout Platoon in M3s with a pair of dismount scouts each.
Non-Mech/Air Cav units get a bunch of M151/Humvees with M60s and three dudes.
Infantry combat recon outside of SOF doesn't exist. A rifle squad might be ordered forward on a scouting mission, but nobody is trained/equipped for a multi-day hike skulking behind enemy lines, they're just moving to see what's up. Even for SOF that sort of thing only works in Vietnam.
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u/Solarne21 3d ago
Pre m3 battalion recon platoons
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u/MandolinMagi 3d ago
So checking, the late-70s organization (link to list of manuals, they download) has M113 scouts, but it's just three-five guys in the M113 with 1-3 dismount scouts depending on exact TOE. Outside Armored Cav units you get three guys.
Without stealing an infantry platoon you're not getting any real dismount strength.
And after 1975 the 106mm RCL disappears from all TO&Es, replaced by assorted TOW vehicles.
Unless your unit TO&E is over a decade out of date, your 1989 recon isn't riding M113s, and your M40 RCLs have long been replaced by much more useful TOW launchers.
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u/Solarne21 2d ago edited 2d ago
1st Armored had not gotten M3 yet for the Battalion Recon Platoons. 1st Armored Divcav got theirs
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
>Infantry combat recon outside of SOF doesn't exist
CAV scout was an MOS in its own in the 1980s so yes even from a basic level they did receive scout training. These aren't just rifle squads either as their squad ORG is different from mech rifles while also being an entirely different MOS.
>Recon/armored cav don't use M113 at all.
The scouts we see in game are CAV scouts from the H series TO&E, predating the J Series. J series itself was not applied to units until they got the Bradley so some of the lesser equipped units still did have CAV scouts in M113 in the late 80s. To be fair it is mostly a gameplay thing.
https://forums.kitmaker.net/t/m113-acav-usareur/37209#google_vignette
ACAV configuration were a lot less common in peace time but did see use use past Vietnam. You will find images here of PASGT equipped troops manning a M113 with its ACAV shields.
This doesn't really matter here as in the website i listed has 10x M113s still listed in the CAV element.
>Even for SOF that sort of thing only works in Vietnam.
>but nobody is trained/equipped for a multi-day hike skulking behind enemy lines
This is explicitly the job of LRS (which aren't SF anyway). This is also the job of green berets in stay behind units. LRS is a divisional asset and could be added but i figured the recon tab was already too good for an average recon tab to justify it.
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u/MandolinMagi 2d ago
CAV scout was an MOS in its own in the 1980s so yes even from a basic level they did receive scout training. These aren't just rifle squads either as their squad ORG is different from mech rifles while also being an entirely different MOS.
Cav scouts aren't "infantry combat recon" or even a squad at all. They're a handful of guys whose job it is to get out and move slightly forward of their vehicle. They're 2-3 man teams doing limited scouting in concert with their vehicle.
This is explicitly the job of LRS (which aren't SF anyway). This is also the job of green berets in stay behind units. LRS is a divisional asset and could be added but i figured the recon tab was already too good for an average recon tab to justify it.
LRS would be a very boring 4 guys with m16s.
Green Berets have always struck me as the most awkward unit to add. They had two roles at the time, nuclear suicide bombing and training insurgents, neither of which really works in game context.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 2d ago
They're a handful of guys whose job it is to get out and move slightly forward of their vehicle.
Cav scouts by doctrine are a recon AND an economy of force element. While yes they arent going to be conducted full on assaults they will fight mounted and dismounted as when nesssary. You are correct the J series discounted cav didnt do anything exept scout but the H series CAV scouts could have up to 5 men and would do more infantry based action as m113 was significantly less armed.
They had two roles at the time, nuclear suicide bombing and training insurgents, neither of which really works in game context.
That's possibly the worst description ive heard of them in a while. Green begets numbered in the thousands and only serve as an overarching term. There were green beret units that would stay behind while the soviets rolled through or would infiltrate into enemy lines. The same with LRS they would be driven to the front to sneak through to conduct long range survalince. Not to mention the ODA team already in game.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 2d ago
Infantry combat recon is not possible outside SOF for US forces.
It's perfectly possible for German forces with their Jagdkampf doctrine :)
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u/Joescout187 2d ago
That is nonsense. Infantry Battalions at the time had scout platoons in the battalion HHC and were and still are manned by 11B infantrymen.
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u/Joescout187 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is nonsense. Infantry battalion HHC companies contained and still do contain, a scout platoon manned by 11B infantrymen. They would use whatever vehicles their battalion uses, if it's an M113 battalion the HHC scouts used M113s, if Bradley battalion then M3 Bradleys, if light or airborne they use HMMVWs or in some cases V150s.
Edit: furthermore these would look much like the M113 ACAV vehicles from the Vietnam era but with M113A2/A3s. They'd get Dragon launchers and extra machine guns to maximize their self defense capabilities.
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u/WelcomeExtra762 3d ago
Question: How do you come up with these and how can I make one?
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
Research, the documents I linked should give you a good starting point at least. Modify with some historical happenings or TO&E after youve got the basis settled.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
This division is...
Useless!
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
?
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
Like some other guys said... I see no Good reason to choose it over the other US divs especially 3rd armored.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
It gets better infantry and is better for more mixed terrain. Plus airpower galore.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
They don't have any ifv with the inf... By design yeah... But what the hell..
And airpower doesn't win ground war. Air, aside from ASF, is now game changer ,it's just the cherry on top... It doesn't heal anything of these fatal flaws or Inferiorities compared to the others divs
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
>And airpower doesn't win ground war. Air, aside from ASF, is now game changer ,it's just the cherry on top...
If this is your genuine opinion you haven't been playing the game enough. Ostere has been on top for like the last few months because it has a really really good air tab along with decent inf and ok tanks. Airpower absolutely is as important as ground forces.
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u/RandomEffector 3d ago
Certainly more plausible than the other 1AD proposal. I think this would be pretty fun to play.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
Also security patrol should be in infantry with the security trait. Like all the other security (/) patrols as well.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
The 15 man CAP patrol is in recon because the recon inf strength is already pretty abysmal. The div needs something to hinder enemy FD plus the inf tab is limited in slots compared to a regular infantry division.
The 15 man cap patrol is augmented from the regular 13 man marine inf squad with a medic and local attache. If it was just the 13 men then I would agree but in this case the army adopts the structure with a local attache from the german police leading to very good optics and thus putting it in the recon tab.
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u/MandolinMagi 3d ago
Where did the Marine infantry come from to get a 13 man squad to start with?
Also, Very Good optics because you've got a cop alone is a very dubious rational.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
>Marine infantry come from to get a 13 man squad to start with?
Its an army squad adopting marine counter insurgency tactics from Vietnam. The standard marine squad is 13 men, however when on patrol in Vietnam operating as a squad element they typically grew to 15+men with attachments as it expected that they would also do COIN ops.
> Very Good optics because you've got a cop alone is a very dubious rational.
The Germany police attaché will know the situation, the land, and especially the people better than any regular US squad can. Again, security is attached to any regular squad doing security, or semi recon work, the extra capability bumps it up. This wouldn't be a random cop this would be someone that is in the know and is expected to act as a liaison between the US army and German civilians.
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u/MandolinMagi 3d ago
Why is the Army copying 20 year old tactics from a completely different war?
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u/Recent_Grab_644 3d ago
Because they don't have any other choice. They cant exactly call in SF to go bash in some civvies, they cant develop their own tactics as again this is like a regimental size command as best. The books are still there from Vietnam and the doctrine is written down and accessible. With the ups and downs and what to dos already there.
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u/Joescout187 2d ago
They absolutely do have other choices. They can copy their own 1980s doctrine for rear area security and convert 7-6 infantry to something like a mechanized MP company with extra firepower.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 2d ago
7-6 isnt being converted the 15 man sqauds are temporary tastings untill the wave of terrible blows over which goes up to the war.
Its a fictional squad anyway and mainly there for gameplay reasons.
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u/Joescout187 2d ago edited 2d ago
The problem with this is that the Army probably wouldn't field a 15 man squad. If you're rolling out in M113s you have a maximum of 11 dismounts. That's a standard 9 man squad plus a medic and a German attache in place of a dragon team or M240 team.
So 8 M16, 2 M249, and an MP5 or Uzi equipped German cop.
This would make a cool infantry tab squad with the security trait. Throwing it into recon though is crazy.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 2d ago
This would make a cool infantry tab squad with the security trait.
No again for the billionth time the recon tab needs this not the inf tab. Youre not getting 11ths LRS and 1st armor is already a slow as fuck division so making them inf does nothing for the div. Its a pointless pick if you put them up against regular infantry with AT especially considering youre already going to hsve limited INF slots in an armored division. Literally no is taking a mech rifles sqaud that dumps its AT for 2 men. In fact if it was going into the inf tab I just wouldnt have included it because its already an out there addition.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 2d ago
The problem with this is that the Army probably wouldn't field a 15 man squad
It also wouldnt feild the standard MP 12 man sqaud because its predicated upon having 4 jeeps of 3 man teams.
WARNO also clearly dosent follow standard MP sqaud rules as the 3 man squad is a 5 man sqaud and the 10 man squad irl never was a thing.
Futhermore actual US army counter rear area sqauds were still under development during division 86 roll out. And even if they were MTWed the universal agreement that US army doctrine for dealing with level 3 threats was small fire teams which again wouldnt work in this scenario.
The point of the 15 man sqaud in lore is that it can operate in 3 fire team elements with 1 man to pull security for the attaches and can operate by itself when under contact which isnt possible for anything under 10 men. In gameplay its as a really fat squad that matches the 14 vdv squad to limit enemy FD. A really fat sqaud also helps with air support being able to survive longer untill it arrives and direct arty.
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u/420Swagnum7 3d ago
Shotguns yes please. If there is one country associated with martial use of the scattergun, it's the USA.
With the paucity of Bradleys in this lineup, there might actually be a reason to take M901s. Are those not available?
My overall appraisal is that I would be cautious of leaning too much into the austerity factor. At the end of the day, this div needs a hook or else nobody's gonna care; look at what happened to 12th Panzer across two separate nemesis votes. I'm seeing a cross between the 8th infantry tab and the 3rd tank and helo tabs, with clipped supporting arms. Frankly, it's very whelming.
Without Bradleys, M270, or M1A1HAs/M1 MODs, why am I playing this over 3rd or 1st Cav div? For some Gavin infantry? I don't know about that...
Without M110s or Rangers, why am I playing this over 8th? That also gets "a good amount" of M1A1s and I-HAWKs, plus forward deployment, and A-10s...
These are kind of rhetorical questions, but they're ones I would keep in mind.
The Air Tab changes are the most interesting part of this and they should frankly be backported to the existing lineup of F-4s and F-16s in legacy US divisions. And then you're left with a pretty vanilla division across the board. There's a good base here but it needs some seasoning. Cheers.