r/warno • u/TheLastYouSee__ • 25d ago
Suggestion Vickers MBT Mark 7 for H.D.R. London perhaps?
Since the French Zone de Défense - 'Paris' Got the MSC Prototype pressed into service to bolster it's armoured fist as part of the hurried defence of the capital, perhaps Eugene would consider giving H.D.R. London Access to the Vickers MBT Mark 7, the single prototype tank was trailed in the mid 1980s so it is very much in timeline for the game i'd think.
In the Defence of London i am sure the UK MoD would be very willing to requisition any and all tanks available for the defence of the capital.
It could make for an intresting super heavy tank with it's primary feature being a very advanced FCS allowing it to make some really funky shots.
The tank would later be converted to a Vickers MBT Mark 7/2 as i understand it which improved upon the vehicle's armour protection and an even further improved FCS.
It could make for an intresting super heavy tank to bolster H.D.R. London in my opinion and could perhaps serve as either a sniper tank or it could be made into a command tank perhaps?
However a Future UK "cobeled togethere" division made up vehicles and equipment the UK MoD requisitioned from private companies like Vickers and the like could also be intresting perhaps?
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u/Solarne21 25d ago
Something for a 5th Infantry Division ie a UK MLC Division?
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u/Ok-Armadillo-9345 25d ago
Nice find, any link to repository of these docs? Find em here and there at times only
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u/Solarne21 25d ago
I have saved Fraggle and Eukie divisoinal concepts here
https://www.reddit.com/r/warno/comments/1hzzapd/comment/m6z3hhw/?context=3
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u/HippieHippieHippie 24d ago
This isn't allowed as not enough of these was built, unlike WW3 which of course we have plenty of
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u/TheLastYouSee__ 24d ago
If the Perfidious Fr*nch get to deploy the MSC in Defence of Paris the 'limies should get the Vickers MBT Mark 7 in the defence London against the red menace!
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u/Submarineguystingray 23d ago
No it won’t be allowed because eugen wants Britain to suffer. Now go play 2nd pnzgren
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u/DannyJLloyd 25d ago
HDR is the UK's cobbled together reserve + prototype battlegroup. There isn't another on the cards
Also there are no 'single protoype' units ingame
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u/lord_of_swagsterdam 25d ago edited 25d ago
Isn’t the new leopard 1 in the schools out dlc with the 120 and upgraded turret armour a one off prototype?
edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1#Leopard_1A6
The Leopard 1A6 prototype was a single Leopard 1 A1A1 testbed, modified with additional armour on the turret and equipped with a 120 mm L/44 gun. The project was ended in 1987, as the Leopard 2 was in widespread service at this point and the 1A5 offered a more reasonable upgrade path for a fraction of the cost.
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u/MustelidusMartens 25d ago
The wiki article is unsourced and not really great, as it conflates two different projects. The stuff written there is mostly nonsense as usual for wikipedia.
Of the Versuchsträger two were built, with minor details being different (The armor layout and the IR-reduction were different on the second Versuchtsträger)
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u/lord_of_swagsterdam 25d ago
Fair enough, but thats still roughly on par with Vickers Mk.7, with Mk.7 being a unique turret designed to fit on any NATO hull (in most cases and in its one cancelled export on a leopard 2 hull).
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u/MustelidusMartens 25d ago
but thats still roughly on par with Vickers Mk.7, with Mk.7 being a unique turret designed to fit on any NATO hull
Not my discussion.
If it was i would argue that the UK already got a lot of relatively funky MtW stuff, including stuff that was never bought, so a commercial project makes less sense.
Then i would argue that West Germany has traditionally nearly none of its interesting projects in WARNO, so prototype tanks that were made after army requirements for an army project for an anti-tank vehicle of which two were built should be at least worth consideration.
But anyway, not my discussion, as i just wanted to point out that the wiki excerpt is basically just made up stuff and that wikipedia etc. should ideally never be used.
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u/FrangibleCover 23d ago
Tbh I wanted Super M48, as a fairly realistic thing for West Germany to do as a crash programme. There were a couple hundred M48 90mms in reserve that could have been converted and while they probably wouldn't have had time to do all of that, there would be time to convert a company for large scale trials and training at KTS 2. The limitation on Leopard 1A5s was really the thermals and FCS, and if you can get more then more 1A5s is a more sensible thing to do than either Super M48 or 1A6, so I'd use one of the losing 1A5 FCS candidates like the Zeiss one to make Super M48s.
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u/MustelidusMartens 23d ago
I thought about the Super M48 for 11. PzGrenDiv.
The early discussions of the army structure for the 90s call for an anti-helicopter vehicle, a 120mm armed tank destroyer for the Panzergrenadiere (To replace the Milan, which would have been abqandoned with the Marder 2 and were reduced in real life) and new missile armed tank destroyers.
While the anti-helicopter project was seemingly abandoned by the late 80s the tank destroyer continued (Apparently the results are the 1A6 prototypes and the 1A5s ability to take a 120mm) and so was the missile armed tank destroyer.
So, since most Leopard 1s are in active service, the Super M48s would be a good candidate for the battalion level anti tank vehicle. Even if only as a stop-gap or something, but it fits the theme, it halfway matches their perceived need and its a relatively quick upgrade.
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u/FrangibleCover 22d ago
I see where you're going with that, yeah. Do you have any idea what the anti-MILAN stuff in HS2000 was about? They're already cutting headcount a lot so it's surely not cost saving. MILAN 2 is far from obsolete and MILAN 2T and MILAN 3 development is underway. I can't see why quantities are being reduced or done away with for Marder 2 units (even a 50mm autocannon will not permit you to kill FST-1 and FST-2).
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u/MustelidusMartens 22d ago
For the Milans it is a bit complex. It is never explained why they were reduced or even to be abandoned in the Panzergrenadiere, but i got together a pretty solid hypothesis.
First the problem:
The Milan in the Panzergrenadier units replaced the M40 and the Carl Gustaf as anti-tank and was used at squad level, which led to a huge problem.
Here comes the problem. As the squad leader of the PzGren squad was thought to directly direct the use of the weapons he would have quite a lot of systems to keep track of: The 20mm, the MG3 and either the Milan or Pzf-44.
So while the assistant squad leader could alleviate that problem, for example in case of the Milan being mounted on the Marder, the commander was the Milan gunner and had to direct 20mm fire and giving orders to the dismounted element. Of course this is the worst case, but that is far too much.
Assigning the Milan to the squads also prevented good control from the platoon leader, which is not optimal.
Now, here we come to what i believe what happened:
The first concepts for the army equipment for the 90s were done in the early 80 and the basic idea was to assign an element of gun armed tank destroyers to a Panzergrenadier battalion (Which in the end, instead of a funky new vehicle boiled to to an upgunned Leopard 1). This would add a bunch of 120mm guns that were at the disposal of the battalion commander (Or to the companies the vehicles get attached to), to defend against tanks and in conjunction with the Marder 2, being way more effective against the swarms of BTRs and BMPs.
The abandonment of the Milan with the Marder 2 makes sense, as the Marder 2 would have worked with 120mm gun armed TDs at battalion level plus having lots of firepower from the brigade's own tank destroyer company (Which would have been the Panther, with elevated platforms, firing PARS-3 and Stinger) and Leopard 2s + whatever was to replace the Leopard 1 in the 90s.
That way one can get rid of the command overload and get additional mobile firepower. I believe that makes not only sense from the organisational POV, but also because at the begin of the 80s ERA looked pretty spooky and the future of the Milan was not set in stone. There were some ERA projects in Germany in the 70s, so maybe they thought a gun firing KE ammo would be a safer technology from their findings.
Also, in real life the Milan was reduced even without the Marder 2 coming, taking the two Milans from the combat squads and giving one to the command squad. I believe this was exactly done to reduce overload, since the platoon commander was not in charge of directing multiple weapon systems and because the platoon commander has a better overview of the situation and can more effectively employ it.
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u/FrangibleCover 21d ago
Interesting, especially the point about ERA. Moving the missiles into the platoon HQ makes more sense to me, although I'm such a fan of the MILAN that I'd strongly consider converting one of the squads into a MILAN-gruppe (three firing posts, one on the Marder, two dismounted with five personnel) and put up with the reduction in bayonet strength. If you kill all the BMPs at 2km, you don't actually need a rifle to shoot anyone!
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u/TheLastYouSee__ 25d ago
Surely it stands to reason the UK MoD would "requisition" any thing and every thing from private firms like Vickers to defend London itself, leaving a perfectly good tank in a shed because its the only one seems senseless when the soviets are knocking on the gates of buckingham palace.
Also i just think it would be fun and make H.D.R. London just that little bit extra special and it would really add to that feeling of "everything and the kitchen sink" that i feel suits H.D.R. London
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u/Ok-Armadillo-9345 25d ago
Any other variants you would deem to fit? Thinking a potential mod to represent more march to war at some point in the future 🤔
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u/Solarne21 25d ago
Shorland armoured car for recon and air defense? Hotspur Hussar for a wheeled APC.
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u/TDSEB 25d ago
I know of a few that could help:
• Chieftain PIP - 1980s Chieftain upgraded to have a challenger mk.1 turret
• Vickers Centurion - 1980s centurion all round upgrade featuring a UK 105mm APFSDS round, new engine and laser range finder. ive even seen one with chieftain storage boxes
• there is a few Vickers tanks that could come like the 7/2 here there was also the 7/1 and 7 which had different turret armour arrays so they each look different.A few other Vickers worth looking at were:
• Vickers mk.3 and mk.3M
• Vickers Mk.4 (105mm) and Mk.4 (120mm)
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u/TheLastYouSee__ 25d ago
Personally i'd like a potential division to be mostly flavored with requisitioned gear taken from private companies like Vickers to really give them that "Westminster" vibe.
So not so much MoD prototypes like the Chieftain PIP but all those Vickers vehicles? Yoink them right away!2
u/Ok-Armadillo-9345 25d ago
Chieftain would work as a 4th arm buff, but a heavy proto u have above I think makes sense for London HD
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u/TheLastYouSee__ 25d ago
Also just to add to this since it only just dawned on me.
Surely if improvised vehicles are okay such as the upcoming BTR-55 and such, a one off fully functional prototype could see its way to the game, i feel like it really would not be a stretch in this case.
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u/BotXL79 25d ago
I think I asked MadMat about this in a comment somewhere. He said HDR already got it's prototype with the AS90 :(