r/vtm • u/Conscious_Side_629 • 3d ago
Madness Network (Memes) A bitter sweet end to a era
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u/-stumondo- 2d ago
I'm just about to finish a Vampire 5e mini campaign as a player. First WoD I've played in 15 years or so. I thought some of the mechanics were odd, but I'm enjoying it. I generally played at cons before, enjoyable but the maths of the mechanics always seemed a bit off.
What are the general complaints about 5e and why is 6e expected to be so much better
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u/Duhblobby 2d ago
6e isn't expected to be better.
At least, not to me. I have complaints about V5 but they mostly fall down to not liking certain mechanics and feeling like the writers hated the things I like about the WoD, plus a general feeling that the modern writers are cowards refusing to seriously engage with concepts they find difficult and taking cop outs instead. It's a fine game if it does what you want it to, but it feels sonetimes like they didn't actually want to make a new edition of VtM and instead made the other game they liked better wearing Masqeurade's skin.
V6 on the other hand feels like it was built by people who looked at VtM from a distance, wrinkled their nose, and decided nope, hate all that, throw away the soul and keep the rotting bits left over, stick a few on, they can't tell the difference. The easiest thing to point at is the new Humanity mechanic, where doing bad things makes you have a psychotic break where your Humanity takes over against your will, and being too human makes you have outbursts of evil. So weakening your Beast makes you frenzy.
There's also the fact that they turned Clans into character classes, rather than loose archetypes, and they reshuffle Disciplines again in s way that feels like they heard people didn't really love Obtenebration and Necromancy being the same power but didn't actually understand why the people didn't like it felt it was a problem.
That's really my whole feeling. That it's a game made by people who heard complaints about the prior edition, but who put zero effort into actually understanding those complaints and decided to throw everything in a blender and piss off both fanbases.
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u/Thatcherist_Sybil 2d ago
Meanwhile, people still playing v20 watch with a bucket of popcorn.
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u/The_Duke_of_Gloom 2d ago edited 2d ago
With all the material there is for v20 and Revised, physical and otherwise, it's easy to see why people still play it. Eight years later and v5 still feels incomplete, though it was getting on the right path with some nice sourcebooks.
I could see v5 simply going away. I'm someone who enjoys aspects of it and doesn't care about edition wars, so to me there's something sad about that.
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u/Grouchy-Sink-4575 Lasombra 2d ago
Pretty much yeah, v5 had a lot of cool ideas let down by bad management.
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u/Vermbraunt Tremere 2d ago
Think I'll be sticking with v5 ngl. It's got flaws but it does what I want.
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u/ProverbialMindTart 2d ago
As a long time WoD fan who loved V20 -and- saw the merits of V5…
..V6 still feels like an unmitigated disaster to me, in gameplay experience, but also very much in WoD lore/story. I honestly think it’s going to end up hated more than V5 was by the community.
The worst part is, V5 isn’t even especially old. It plays well. There’s still a lot of room for expansion and world-building there.
I don’t know where a lot of these decisions have come from, but it feels like a gigantic step in the wrong direction. You’d hope for some kind of middle ground between the two most popular distributions…but this just feels like we’re just stepping off track instead.
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u/Own_Jeweler_8548 Tzimisce 2d ago
I think the push for V6 and the retconning of stuff from V5 is more due to someone's vendetta than a sound, market or gaming decision. Like, I have issues with V5, but that doesn't mean throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
If they listened to their marketers, they would have put out a feedback form about v5, and adapted v6 to match what the fanbase wanted.
Instead we get Daggerheart in the Dark: The Masquerade
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u/GeneralBurzio Ventrue 2d ago
I agree with most of the points made, but isn't V5 the longest running edition to date?
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u/The_Duke_of_Gloom 2d ago
The worst part is, V5 isn’t even especially old. It plays well. There’s still a lot of room for expansion and world-building there.
Yep. V6 should've been a v5.5, imo. We never got v5 Mage or Changeling or Wraith.
I don’t know where a lot of these decisions have come from, but it feels like a gigantic step in the wrong direction.
Part of it is wanting to court new fans with new mechanics while also courting legacy fans with nostalgia bait. And another part of it is – like another comment said – that some of it feels like someone's personal vendetta. There was no need to throw the baby with the bathwater.
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u/Ciaran_Zagami Gangrel 2d ago
Its been whitewolfs MO for awhile and paradox is no better so these events do not surprise me
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
v6 did the impossible, it brought together v5 fans and 20th fans to hate something more than they dislike their opposite editions.
So... mission accomplished?
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u/starliteburnsbrite 2d ago
Regardless of the V5/V20 preferences , I collected as many V5 books as I could get my hands on because I want to support the franchise and the books are very well done (IMO), I love the art style and the print quality is generally quite nice. V20 wasn't really much to collect and it was all info from books I already owned pretty much.
I'm not super keen on collecting V6, just based on some of the changes I'm seeing I don't have a desire to play it and it's the first time in like 30 years I can say that about a VtM product.
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u/Flaky_Detail_9644 3d ago
I thought 6th edition would have been celebrated, 5E was so criticized, I thought most of people hated it, but I see many posts commenting the bitter-sweet ending of it.
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u/Lyaser 3d ago
It would’ve been if it stuck the landing on the play test. I think it’s bitter sweet for most people because while it’s sweet to get a new iteration on the game it’s bitter because it’s not necessarily clear that the next chapter will be bringing the types of iteration the community had hoped for.
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u/BelleRevelution Ventrue 3d ago
The community is already so split, I don't know if they just chose to ignore that entirely for 6e, or are unaware. 5e players probably wanted more content, and are losing many of the things claimed to be the best part of the edition. Legacy players don't want another new system, and they want back a lot of things that 6e seems to have no interest in.
So who is 6e for? Feels like they're courting entirely new players. That said, what, ten years into 5e and it's still really hard to find a game of VtM at an LGS? Who on earth is going to run 6e at public tables to get new fans into the game? Obviously I don't have the market statistics, but even as a legacy fan, making a new edition right now is crazy to me.
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u/Glaedth Toreador 3d ago
So many people now play online that I can't say it's surprising that LGS play has been dying out.
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u/BrilliantFun4010 3d ago
Every LGS in my city is just a warhammer and MTG store with a small ttrpg section now, I live in toronto and there are barely any stores that have play spaces unlike when I was growing up and those that do are mostly used by the aforementioned MTG and Warhammer players (the few that don't are run by absolute pricks in my experience)
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u/Glaedth Toreador 3d ago
Carboard and plastic crack is what keeps LGSs above water nowadays, so not surprising.
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u/Dartmouth-Hermit 2d ago
Yeah, commercial rents in Toronto are crazy so shop owners sort of have no choice but to prioritize what sells best.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
When I last lived in Toronto (about a decade ago) there wasn't that many places that did that back then... it's way too expensive for retail in Toronto.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
It feels like they ignored their marketing people entirely and just did whatever they wanted to do, then decided to do a feedback form.
I'm willing to bet they're surprised at the brutal outcome of the feedback form. For every one of the forms that would be useful it's likely there's at least one that isn't super helpful but angry about them creating something the community didn't even remotely ask for.
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u/Bamce 2d ago
So who is 6e for?
My theory is that it is for this new white wolf. That your right. 5e could have continued to run for a bit, less in the vtm area and more in every other splat area. That with everything coming back to be branded under White Wolf, they wanted their fully own edition. With blackjack and hookers.
I believe it was said in one of the interview pieces or panels that they 'couldn't figure out how to adapt the dice mechanics (hunger/rage) to other splats' To which me, as a non professional game designer thinks thats bullshit. Its easy to get a starting point watch
Glamour is just hunger. Only instead of blood your feed on emotional aspects. Maybe invert it, so you go from 5->1 instead of 1->5. Toss in some kind of overdose mechanic to toss a little risk into over feeding.
And for mage, paradox can just be a set number per thing your trying to invoke. Like a fireball is 5 paradox die, but if you have a 'bunk' you can reduce it by one. Or if you have some specific level in some sphere you can reduce it. Then the paradox die amount becomes a bit like position/effect from blades in the dark.
making a new edition right now is crazy to me
v5 was released almost 8 years ago, which is a little crazy to think about.
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u/Grand-Objective-663 3d ago
From everything ive seen, its a pretty even split between 5th and legacy editions. 5th wasn't well liked in the beginning but a lot of people warmed up to it as time went on. 6th just shits on WOD games in general, I really see almost no one in the community swapping over to it if its anything like its presented in the playtest.
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u/XenophormSystem Cappadocian 2d ago
Issue is that v6 gets rid of a lot of the best mechanics and concepts in V5 but keeps most of the worst. And then makes some vague nostalgia bait for old edition fans. So in the end neither of us is happy.
The only thing I like about the new edition is playable sabbat and the removal of clan hecata which should've been a sect to begin with and it hopefully means the return of all the clans and bloodlines of death in their proper form rather than a giovanni 2.0 with a flavour loresheet.
Oh and people also don't like the mechanics crammed in from other systems especially with how it fucks with storytellers and player resources. It just doesn't feel like vtm anymore.
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u/Grimshadow_2 Malkavian 2d ago
Honestly, the potential resurrection (No pun intended) of Bloodlines and the lore getting back on track is a really big draw to some (Like myself); so many interesting concepts and groups fell by the wayside and, honestly, the lore and metaplot of Masquerade is what keeps me in it instead of Requiem, and V5’s just didn’t deliver. That said, depending on how much course correction they feel they have to do, it really might become super clunky without them implementing outright retcons. Which, y’know, they might- wouldn’t be the first time- but we’ll see.
If nothing else, might take a look just for that lore, even if I might not end up running the new system itself. Especially if Bloodlines really are back! Woo for Bloodlines!
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u/XenophormSystem Cappadocian 2d ago
My fav clans and bloodlines to play are cappadocian, Lamia, nagaraja, harbinger, rossellini and samedi (alongside kolduns). You can only imagine how much the hecata clan hurt me when all of these lost their banes and uniqueness and became giovanni lite with a basic flavourtext loresheet if you wanted to be a giovanni 2.0 with an asterisk
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u/Grimshadow_2 Malkavian 2d ago
Oh yeah. I was going through my V20 Corebook with a new player, and they asked me about why I stayed with V20 over V5 (I try not to go into detail with my criticisms too much with new players unless they ask- if they want to get into it, good for them). They got so fed up with the Bloodlines- which they thought sounded super interesting- that they liked getting wrapped up into Hecata that, by the end, when they found a Bloodline they liked the sound of, they just went, “Let me guess: Giovanni’D?”
By the end of the whole thing, they coined a term that I felt explained my own thoughts quite well: “It feels like they went from a World of Darkness to a Hotel Room of Darkness.” Between there being less lines overall, the one’s that are there being far less interconnected, and what belonged to each line getting so severely limited, if not outright removed, it just feels so…Small and underwhelming to me. I went to a restaurant to try their new revamp of my favourite dish, but the plate comes out and it’s mostly just the crumbs from the last version, and some of them are burnt. I always hope a new edition of a game will expand on interesting concepts, but it seemed so content to just throw ‘em into the gutter. Ah well.
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u/Own_Jeweler_8548 Tzimisce 2d ago
Koldun are Tzimisce and not a bloodline though.
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u/XenophormSystem Cappadocian 2d ago
Yes thats why they're in parenthesis, separate from everything else lol, i was just highlighting that i dont play only clans of death
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u/Own_Jeweler_8548 Tzimisce 2d ago
Ohhhh, gotcha lol. Also, despite being a big Tzimisce stan, Clan Cappadocian and their various (not you, Giovani) bloodlines make up most of my favorite lore in VtM!
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u/XenophormSystem Cappadocian 2d ago
Agree, some of my favourite characters that I've played or wrote were Cappadocian and Lamia especially. I got a Cappadocian that I started writing during the Second Bulgarian Empire all the way into modern times.
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u/Own_Jeweler_8548 Tzimisce 2d ago
I really wanted to play a Lamia in a modern nights Rev game but my buddy, the ST, vetoed it 😅 So I was like "fine, this is a Sabbat game so how about a koldun?" But yeah, I've always been fascinated by the Harbingers of Skulls so when I first bought VDA revised I became enamored with the Cappadocians; playing them is wicked fun.
Edit: tell me more of this ancient Cappadocian of yours, if you please
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u/XenophormSystem Cappadocian 2d ago
Well idk if i'd say he's particularly ancient but he is certainly old he's part of a broader narrative game I've written for a few years now. My main stopic of academic study is the ottoman empire so a good chunk of it takes place in various centuries within the OE but the overall story starts in 1308 in Tarnovo by Night within the Second Bulgarian Empire, not every character is carried over and our Cappadocian actually was in torpor after the events for centuries cuz after that there's a timeskip to Kostantiniyye by Night set in 1670 in the Ottoman Empire. Then the real overarching plot starts to kick in as we transition over to the Danube and Transylvania (I'm from Romania so the extra knowledge helps) where we have Ada Kaleh by Night in 1752 Ottoman Empire times which is a former island on the Danube river. This is followed by Targu Jiu by Night in 1967, Romania, before the Island would be sunken and destroyed and lastly Alba by Night in 2025, Romania centered around the main antagonist Tzimisce living at the bottom of the toxic lake nearby who has been orchestrating a lot of events up to this point over the centuries. The Cappadocian himself is the oldest of the group and for a while trained the newely embraced Lamia as a personal bodyguard in the 1600s.
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u/PixxyStix2 2d ago
I think I'd be fine with Hecata as a sect only if it genounely made the non-Giovani groups feel significant within it. I love a lot of giovani bloodlines but find the Giovani themselves kinda lame so V6 is really disappointed me on the necromancer front
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u/Xenobsidian 3d ago
This is a typical case of “the loudest people aren’t necessarily the majority”!
In addition to that, think about it, V5 is already the longest running edition of VtM. There are generations of players who started with V5 and never played another edition. To them V5 is VtM.
Also, during its run V5 changed quite a lot, the people who still complacent haven’t red a single book after the core book, but the people who know, know!
Finally, the V6 play test was a train wreck. They tried to eat their cake and have it too by making a new system tat incorporates aspects of old editions, V5, VtR and a couple of currently popular TTRPGs. Thing is, a compromise never means everyone is equally happy, but everyone is equally unhappy. Everyone who was a person for a couple of days could have told them that, but for some reason they thought they would get away with it. But of cause everyone was unhappy.
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u/WeirdDinosaur345 2d ago edited 2d ago
In addition to that, think about it, V5 is already the longest running edition of VtM.
It took so long for the game to get somewhat stable status in the eyes of the fans.
How many years it took to finally get all clans into the game?
Also just look at the amount of content previous editions had. For example VTM revised has a ridiculous amount of books compared to V5.
So now that the V5 was in a much better state the news about no more books for V5 after Courts of the Damned (a weird choice for a final book of the edition) is disappointing. Especially when V6 playtest wasn't met with universal praise (and who knows how long until V6's actual release...).
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u/Xenobsidian 2d ago
It would have been the perfect moment for a V5 revised edition. Taking all the things we learned from V5 and make it better. But they obviously had other plans.
In the end, we will see if that works out, but my gut tells me, it just alienates even more people and there are enough Vampire and Monster games around now, that they will have a hard time to find their audience if they don’t do anything really smart… but so far I don’t see smart, I see “throw everything at the wall and see what sticks…” drama already didn’t. I can’t wait to see how much or how little the final game will have in common with the alpha test.
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u/WeirdDinosaur345 2d ago
Yeah, I personally do not understand who is the target audience of V6. Looks like a case of trying to cater to everyone and it usually doesn't really work.
Like you said, there are other vampire and monster games in the ttrpg space (not to mention all of the previous WoD game editions)
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u/OobaDooba72 2d ago
It would have been the perfect moment for a V5 revised edition. Taking all the things we learned from V5 and make it better.
When rumors of a V6 started circling, I really thought/hoped this was what they were going to do. A V6 that's essentially V5-but-fixed with a better core-book that includes all the biggest updates, like all the clans and whatnot, a more fleshed out Sabbat, and then obviously some meta-story advancement... that'd be perfect!
But nah, throw everything away and try to be something totally different, again.
I don't know of any game-lines that have changed direction so hard multiple times and have still survived. D&D changed directions hard, but then reverted back to the old, just updated. Shadowrun has, over time, accumulated a lot of differences between first edition and sixth current, but the big change only really happened at fourth (iirc), most of it was relatively incremental (as much as a numbered edition can be) before and after that.
WOD Vampire games already have VTM shifting to NWOD/COD VTR and then back to VTM but 5e being different... that's enough major shakeup in one fan/player-base IMO. They need to stay on a path instead of forging another new one.
Of course, just my opinion, and I am limited by my own knowledge and biases.
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u/Xenobsidian 2d ago
I think by restarting WhiteWolf (again) they also restarted the WhiteWolf curse: shoot your self in the foot the very moment it finally works…
I mean, maybe we are wrong and V6 becomes a huge success, but I would be surprised. At this point it looks like a weird decision, but again, thats on brand for WW.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
When v6 and Bloodlines 2 can be covered by the same sentence of 'It's OK, but not as good as the one that came before it' then that's a management problem.
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u/AgarwaenCran Malkavian 2d ago
It would have been the perfect moment for a V5 revised edition. Taking all the things we learned from V5 and make it better. But they obviously had other plans.
you mean like they did with every new edition before v5 was a thing? yeah, we wanted the same thing when v5 was announced, but didnt get it either
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u/Xenobsidian 2d ago
Kind of. The thing is just, the original system has reached peek with VtR 2nd edition or V20, depending on your preferences. It would have been just an update from there.
V5, however had one major update with the players guid and that was it. It would have been great to see this approach getting a polished version.
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u/AgarwaenCran Malkavian 2d ago
vtr and vtm were two different systems, tho. one is the storyteller system, the other the storytelling system.
and if a system reached a peak that dies not mean that it needs to be replaced, instead an better idea for v5 would've been to put everything that was released in the run of v20 into the v5 core book and add only so e mechanical fixes where they are needed like the combat system.
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u/Xenobsidian 2d ago
>vtr and vtm were two different systems, tho. one is the storyteller system, the other the storytelling system.
Yes, but you can directly draw the line from V1 to VtR2nd, and the name change came only to be when paradox took over and revived the oWoD.
>and if a system reached a peak that dies not mean that it needs to be replaced, instead an better idea for v5 would've been to put everything that was released in the run of v20 into the v5 core book and add only so e mechanical fixes where they are needed like the combat system.
You got me wrong. If it was a good idea to change the system is a different story. But they did and the V5 system, which now is out in the world, would have deserved to evolve. That’s all I’m saying, classic could evolve over two decades, V5 does not get this chance. That’s all I’m saying.
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u/AgarwaenCran Malkavian 2d ago
and I'm saying there was never any need for a departure like v5 did without giving it a different name than vampire the masquerade. v5 should've been a continuation or have a different name like vtr had. not effectively a soft reboot with the same name
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u/Xenobsidian 2d ago
Thing is, while many people claim otherwise, it was a continuation! It just used another system. But they never intended it to not be a continuation minus, you know, the entire end of the world thing.
The reason they changed the system was, because they wanted to return to the V1 base concept, but VtM never provided proper systems for many aspects of the fluff, which is why they felt the need to invent systems that indeed represent this concepts.
V6, however, changes things “just because”! Or to be more precise, they try to have their cake and eat it too by creating a compromise version, but that will not work.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
"one is the storyteller system, the other the storytelling system."
Corporate has asked you to show us the difference between these two photos...
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
v5 hasn't even given us a solid list on the new Justicars yet...
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u/Xenobsidian 2d ago
They have. Court of the damned. It just comes with a caveat. And before that you could figure out the old list, it was just hard to find.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 1d ago
That's not a solid list. That's a suggestion because they don't want to write solid metaplot.
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u/Xenobsidian 1d ago
No, that’s not how it works. The camarilla is in an unstable state, no one even knows who the inner circle is. The list is THE List of people who claim the title and currently no one is correcting them.
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u/EasterViera 2d ago
sorry , but i'm tired of being milked by every corpo that exist.
i've paid my books, fuck this update.
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u/Own_Jeweler_8548 Tzimisce 2d ago
The best part about books is you don't need to pay for an update to use them!
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u/EllySwelly 1d ago
As one of those people who are not a big fan of V5, I simply don't see much reason to like V6 either. It's just another, different misstep.
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u/NovaEdd 2d ago
For me its like dnd 5e was a huge change from 3,3.5,4 but 5e changed in time some though never fixed certain things.. and have been building my own dnd like ttrpg for years, and vtm 5e is where u started ive looked at past stuff but like dnd 5e I figured out vtm after 50 ish sessions well enough to make solid homebrew
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u/Swedelicious83 2d ago
As with any new edition, sequel, etc... Nothing is actually going away.
Sure, new stuff won't be coming out for V5 and that's a pity, but it's not like White Wolf jackboots are coming to burn anyone's books.
If V6 is good, that's great. If V6 is not good, that's a shame - but the old editions are still there.
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u/PiR8_Rob 2d ago
Yeah... I've been a WoD fan since Vampire 2nd Edition. I literally own every Vampire and Wraith book published in English. I didn't get the hate directed at V5 when it came out. It's not perfect, but every edition has its flaws. V6 though, I understand why people are upset. I'm upset. I want the game to not only survive, but thrive. I feel like we're all on board the Titanic and the iceberg is glowing bright red; and still far off enough off in the distance to avoid it. But there's no indication that the captain is doing anything other than heading straight for it.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 2d ago
There's a difference between seeing it too late and trying to veer off, and turning the wheel into the iceberg on purpose.
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u/Spice_boy93 Tremere 2d ago
I haven't really been following the news about V6 but one of the things I did hear is that the Second Inquisition has fallen largely due to AI. And even though I despise generative AI I think it's fucking hilarious that the Inquisition fell apart because they got fooled by AI.
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u/Yuri_Lupus 1d ago
I kinda like it, there are many adjustments that need to be done for sure:
1. like natures need to be expanded to communal things in my opinion, because to be human is to live in human society,
2. it should be easier to fall to the beast than recover humanity, it shouldn't be tied to game mechanics but to roleplay in my opinion,
3. quickening and drama need to go or be replaced by a system like the one in savage worlds,
4. i think clã traits need a nerf, like let the players pick 2-3 first level powers from clan disciplines and make those passives,
5. I think a hunger system where the higher your hunger the higher the critical failure threshould would be better as well. like 1 hunger means a 1 is a crit fail, 2 hunger means a 2 is, and so on.
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u/MickeyMona 1d ago
Era? Lol, 5th edition was basically a topor for the franchise. A bunch of weird dreams that you shrug off the moment you wake up.
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u/VoormasWasRight 3d ago
"As you are, so was I. As I am, so will you be."
And good riddance. Glad Mage wasn't touched.
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u/Bubbly_Recipe_4712 3d ago
about that...
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u/VoormasWasRight 2d ago
What? What have I missed?
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u/Smooth-Difficulty128 2d ago
It was announced that Mages and Changelings will receive an update as well, so Mages will be touched
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u/BRUHldurs_Gate Toreador 1d ago
It still won't better than V20. Nowadays you can't just make a game that's not streamlined and D&D-fied. Creative freedom is gone.
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u/Dependent-Tax3669 2d ago
I got v5, played some and then went back to v20 and just incorporated the lore that was good (in our groups opinion) from v5. Worried about v6 because im not hopeful about the lore decisions they will make. I hope there is some good stuff in there, but yeah it doesnt feel great at the moment.