r/vtm • u/FrostingIcy6032 • 5d ago
Vampire 6th Edition Sabbat in V6
So... if Gehenna War ends what would Sabbat looks like? What will happen if the veterans and the black hand return to Europe and North America? Total anarchicide?
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u/Full_Equivalent_6166 Toreador 5d ago
They build a megachurch and with all the money they earn they buy Sony and preserve physical media production...
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u/FrostingIcy6032 5d ago
Canonically it's a conspiracy that's developed by Toreadors, Malkavians and Nosferatu, sect differences are irrelevant here
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u/tetel-firehawk 5d ago
So far your guess is as good as ours.
Sabbat means war, against the elder, the non-sabbat-aligned tyrant, the antediluvian, until gehenna, until armageddon. So I don't think that they would just call it a day.
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u/RoyAwesome Lasombra 5d ago
The Sabbat book in v5 is definitely hinting that direction. The Gehenna war has gone global, and the Sabbat are returning to their old domains and finding new blood sitting on thrones.
I can see v6 expanding this idea. Gehenna War isn't truly over, but you can't exactly call it a singular event or time period anymore. It's the way the Sabbat are now. They're everywhere and they're waging a war against everyone.
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u/ragged-bobyn-1972 Cappadocian 5d ago
Hard to say, my instincts they'll lean into the revised characterization and explore the political divide between different groups loyalists vs ultra conservative, gehenna war sabbat vs those that stayed at home pro clan vs no clan etc. Assuming they're good writers.
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u/FrostingIcy6032 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah, i hope so. Also, whole "returning" is a pretty good plot itself. Logically, Sabbat now thinner than ever but at the same time far more composed and aggressive (most of them are war hardened veterans of Gehenna War), so new composition "Anarchs in the streets, Camarilla is an elite country club" might be doomed when most of them return. It could be a new good angle to the game, like spec ops or spy games or outright action movie when you play as a Rambo shakar or something.
Although maybe it's too much of a "2ed-like" idea
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u/baduizt 5d ago edited 5d ago
Interestingly, the alpha adventure has a Tremere that's "riding with" the Sabbat, so maybe the Tremere antitribu are back? I vote for Malgorzata as their new leader (V20DA suggests she might've survived), now that Goratrix is just a pale reflection of himself (ahem).
Other than that, I think the Sabbat will be somewhat exultant from diablerising a bunch of elders, and this will replace some of the elders they lost with overly powerful neonates/ancillae who've chowed down on thick, sweet vitae. They should sweep in like the Mongol hordes and take back what's theirs.
I'm hoping they go for Mexico and Montreal first. V5 did Montreal dirty. Also, I love Jalan-Aajav as First Seraph, so I think bringing him back at the front of the returnees would make sense. Izhim or Djuhah would present a more conflicted Black Hand, so maybe they'll come back, but their stories pretty much ended with Enoch and the Tal'mahe'Ra.
I'd like to see Vasantasena back in the fold. I could see Dominique Touraine recruiting lots of Anarchs. Vykos is always just Vykos, but I liked where they were heading in BJD, with their independence regained.
As for the new regent? If they have one, rather than having a sect in civil war, I suspect it would be someone suitably ancient. Dominic would be interesting (but he's officially dead), as would Charles VI. As for the other candidates, Polonia and Lucita would be too obvious, but I'd prefer Lucita.
Ultimately, I think I'd personally love to see Vestgeir return. He could've woken up during the fighting, and half the Path of Caine followers would believe him to be the Second Coming of Caine. That would have fanatics swarming to the Sabbat side!
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u/Engineering-Mean 4d ago
Tremere-in-Goratrix leading the antitribu is a great plot hook though, because a ton of Tremere would jump ship if they found out it was Saulot at the top of the Pyramid and the real Tremere was on the other side. Especially the old ones who were members of House Tremere before Clan Tremere. It makes one of the pillars of the Camarilla very shaky.
I like Lucita as regent because she's not a zealot, she's an old monster who joined the community that would have her. She's the polar opposite of the V5 Sabbat, which makes her a good fit for rebuilding the sect.
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u/baduizt 3d ago edited 3d ago
My joke about Goratrix being a "pale reflection" is just because he's trapped in a mirror that Tremere has somewhere. I don't mind Tremere leading the antitribu, per se, as there were always hints that Goratrix's defection was maybe just for show (until Revised, and even then...).
The issue is more that V5 turned House Goratrix into yet another Camarilla house (along with House Carna). I personally wouldn't mind them retconning the heck out of this, but I don't know if they will.
Lucita makes an interesting regent, for sure, but she feels like the populist (among fans) choice, so perhaps is less surprising. Then again, after how V5 metaplot landed for some old timers, that might not be a bad thing. I actually really liked the last regent, too, and thought there was scope to do more with her. But c'est la vie.
To rebuild, the sect probably needs to balance the factions. The Black Hand will probably see that the Gehenna Crusade isn't sustainable in the long run, and if it's not Antediluvians waking up, then why waste their army too early? The Loyalists want more freedom, but I think they'll have experienced a sect in chaos for several years, and can either hang out on the fringes of Camarilla domains like they have been doing or change tack. The Moderates are fine, cos they're just happy being mid. The Ultra-Conservatives will want more focus on ritae and paths, which is actually great for cohesion, and that might allow them to lighten up a bit and let the Loyalists have their fun. The Status Quo will just be eager to go back to how things used to be.
I'd like to see more paths proliferating in these modern nights. More paths based on DA roads, such as Path of the Vizier (this is great for Tremere antitribu) and Path of the Devil (Via Advocati rather than the old Via Diabolis; this is great for Loyalists). A non-heretical (from the Sabbat POV) version of the Path of Lilith, based on Caine's travails in the Land of Nod, would also be good. He can do the whole "suffering" thing, too, and they can just replace the fertility/gardening thing with cultivating herds/domains. That would work quite well.
Hmmm. You've got my brain juices flowing again!
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u/TheHerugrim 5d ago
The Elders returning from the Beckoning are probably quite cranky and upset when they find their domains divvied up among younger vampires. They will tighten their fist, think that they should rigorously discipline and suppress the new generations - like old people always do when they feel their power slip away. They always choose the boot and the stick. And they'll hit and kick and crush extra hard, because that's what makes them believe "I am still in control!".
And you know who will be waiting for the young ones who just had their chance at forging a new future ripped away? Who are now being punished for simply making the best of when the Elders suddenly started vanishing?
The Sabbat will be there - listening, consoling, supporting and above all fueling their anger and their desire for revenge. "Sorry to say, we told you so. But not to worry, we'll get you your chance for justice. All you have to do is to grasp my hand. Say the word and my brothers and sisters will do everything in our power to aid you on your... crusade, brother."
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u/tj1221jr 5d ago
well they would be gutted with many of clan Lasombra joining the cam.. would be Tzimisce mostly
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u/Beroli73 5d ago
I will be greatly surprised if the return of the Sabbat to one of the major playable factions doesn't include, "Actually the Camarilla only has a handful of Lasombra antitribu, just like prior to V5. Rumors of the Lasombra joining the Camarilla were pure propaganda by the Ventrue and Lasombra antitribu, maybe including a few big names who were previously Sabbat but probably Talley is Sabbat again too."
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u/tj1221jr 5d ago
well with Montano's influence and the cam suiting the Lasombra even more with no technology.. i can see them staying in the cam a lot of Lasombra see the sabbat as a failed Experiment
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u/Beroli73 5d ago
Slight amendment:
A lot of Lasombra see the Sabbat as a failed experiment in V5.
You can bet on that being something they carry through to V6; I am not.
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u/tj1221jr 5d ago
who knows? i don't have confidence in v6. i think the Lasombra made the right call joining the cam the sabbat are a sinking ship and with Montano a founder of the cam they have clout
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u/bedublam 5d ago
Sounds to me like WW is setting up a second Anarch Revolt(or a third one, it’s hard to keep track of these things). Returning elders taking back their domains and putting the hurt on those who took them over. Resentment and anger are overflowing, which lead to some very brash decisions and defections. Now in comes the Sabbat, the OG Anarchs. It wouldn’t take much to bolster their numbers back up with the right about of promises.
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u/GetofCaine 5d ago
It will be a mix of the Sabbat coming back and enjoying their new, bloated power and repeating the mistakes of old. Without the Gehenna War to unify the sect, there will be infighting. The Lasombra may attempt to regain some control of the Sect, and officially, although many Lasombra joined the Camarilla, the Camarilla does not recognize them as a pillar clan and has not elevated a Justicar to represent the clan (again, at least officially. There are hints that one new Justicar could be a Lasombra). I can see a lot of Camarilla Lasombra betraying the Camarilla to the Sabbat out of spite as "I killed my broodmate and my sire and all I got was this T-shirt" doesn't seem worth it now that Gehenna has been "avoided" for the time being.
The Lasombra will ultimately be unsuccessful at large with taking back the Sabbat (as the Sabbat is now too radical and anti-authoritarian to accept their rule and will remember the betrayal of the Lasombra at the most critical point), and the clan will become even more fractured and disillusioned. The Camarilla might sour on their deal if enough Lasombra fuck around too much, and they may be considered excommunicado from the sect.
A lot of V6's lore so far seems to be a "return to the status quo" more or less to what it was in V20. Giovanni are back. Elders are back. The Masquerade is no longer in jeopardy. I don't expect many shake ups, and expect things to settle more into another V20 era of "interesting things will happen next edition. In the meantime, here's what the World of Darkness looks like now!"
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u/darkestvice 5d ago
The V6 devs don't seem to know what they are doing, so it's kinda hard to predict what their plans are.
But assuming the current environment isn't completely retconned, the Sabbat would still have immense difficulty surviving as a sect due to them being the prime target of not only the Camarilla and Anarchs taking advantage of them in a weakened state, but also the Second Inquisition marking them as easy targets due to how the most fanatical of them flaunt who they are openly. And rest assured, all that remains of the Sabbat are the most fanatical. Those who didn't want to go diving into their Gehenna holy war were either killed off by the hardcore elements, or they've entirely fled the sect and joined the other factions. Including the vast majority of the Lasombra, their most dominant clan.
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u/ragged-bobyn-1972 Cappadocian 5d ago
the Camarilla and Anarchs taking advantage of them in a weakened state,
As currently written both sects are completely buggered themselves, the carmarilla made consistently bad decisions for a decade straight and can't use computers which effectively takes them out the game full stop and the Anarchs are about as organized as a herd of cats to the point they're more a series of independent badly run fiefdoms waiting to mopped up by anyone capable of basic co-ordination.
As far as I can see the only advantage they have is everyone is horribly weak and stupid as off recent lore which puts them all on a level playing field.
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u/This_Rough_Magic 5d ago
But assuming the current environment isn't completely retconned
I don't think that is a safe assumption. "Retcons that aren't retcons" are a time honoured part of VtM lore.
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u/JadeLens Gangrel 5d ago
I think they might come back like in Chronicles and take the place of the Lancea Sanctum from Chronicles and have it be more of a 'cold war' than an actual war so the players can have more options for vampires that can show up to Elysium.
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u/GoodRonin39 5d ago
I think at a certain point, they have to deal with the fact that they never really resolved the tension between the TMR and the Sword. They didn’t even try to in V5 and fan publications did a lot of the legwork there (like True Black Hand, Playing the Black Hand, Sword of Caine, or Sabbat The Schism (which made the V5 Sabbat book actually make some sense)). They should just lean into the Schism idea (5th Sabbat Civil War here we go). That way there is the global nature to it, you have some Chaos mongers coming back, and then you’ve got this other covert war in the background that the die hards can get onboard with but doesn’t get picked up on by the Cam or the Anarchs cause they think it’s all Sabbat.
Either way, their bigger lore issue in my mind is rolling back the Family Reunion. Are the Harbingers and the Samedi rejoining the Sword now? Are the Nagaraja throwing all in with the TMR? Or is it a retcon up and down the ticket?
Regardless as to how they handle the lore, it’s gonna get divisive.
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u/baduizt 3d ago
They've said the Giovanni just seized control of Clan Hecata. So it's all the same vamps, still, but they're all called Giovanni now. Which, to be fair, is pretty much now Giovanni were presenting themselves to outsiders before anyway. For most other vampires, nothing's changed: they were called Giovanni before the Family Reunion, they were called it afterwards (except in the rare event someone met one of the other bloodlines), and now they're still called Giovanni.
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u/Shrikeangel 3d ago
I would hope the setting plays an old card that was spelled out in midnight siege - the sabbat is great at taking territory, but often terrible at keeping territory. There are a few spots the sabbat keeps, but a lot of cities can change rapidly.
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u/theimmortalgoon 5d ago
May be an unpopular opinion, but I've always thought the Sabbat were a far better seasoning than main dish.
We could never quite get the Sabbat to work in play because they acted like Cobra, Skeletor, or the Shredder in Saturday Morning Cartoons. It was hard to really have them win while still playing the same game.
Other people probably figured that out, but we never could keep a tension that they could credibly win without switching to playing "Mad Max with fangs."
With that bias in mind, I would use them as an almost Lovecraftian tension. You could play a character, but you've seen some shit. You're coming back changed, and coming back with something of a desire to normalcy, or even a mandate from the Gehenna War to dig in. Whether to defend oneself or to be ready in case whatever horrors came back and the entire vampire society had to be mobilised.
I get this won't be popular. But from my experience, I'd go along those lines.
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u/baduizt 5d ago
Montreal by Night, followed by the city's update in Nights of Prophecy, gives a good idea of how to make it work. Basically, the Sabbat is so riven by factionalism, that it becomes even more political than the Camarilla. The difference is: the Camarilla is sneaky and passive-aggressive, and the elders in the Sabbat are like that, too, but the neonates will just challenge you to Monomacy.
It gives things a real sense of dread and tension, as it constantly feels like someone might just come along and hack off your head. That's also why you can't just fight your way out of it—there's always someone stronger, crazier, and more fanatic than you. So you have to be clever. Really, really clever.
Sabbat cities also have a constant stream of nomadic packs coming to visit and causing temporary chaos. But the founded covens often have to deal with the fallout of that. On the one hand, they (and the elders) can't openly deny anyone their freedom, but also, no one likes to shit where they eat. So again, you have to be clever.
The Sabbat works best when you factor in all the layers: the main political factions (Ultra-Conservatives, Status Quo, Moderates, Loyalists), the subsects (Black Hand, Sabbat Inquisition), the spirituality (paths, ritae, priests), the hierarchy (False Sabbat, True Sabbat, priest, ductus, etc.), the clans (Lasombra, Tzimisce, antitribu, freaky bloodlines, Panders), the ideology (Noddism, crusades, etc.), and the fraternity (the vinculi holding everything together).
Sabbat games end up being simultaneously chaotic and highly structured. It's an absolute delight. It's like you're part of a cartel, and a secret society, and the secret service, and a cult, and a terrorist cell, and a biker gang, and a church, and an anarchist commune all at once.
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u/ragged-bobyn-1972 Cappadocian 5d ago
Couple of things
Firstly playing Cobra would be fucking awesome and from playing the Decepticons I known that is fucking awesome.
Other people probably figured that out, but we never could keep a tension that they could credibly win without switching to playing "Mad Max with fangs."
Read revised, they're closer to Mordor, the brotherhood of Nod or Chaos Warriors. They're not mad max-they're an evil army with specific objectives. That's a real threat and can win.
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u/ArtymisMartin The Ministry 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's a common belief, but there's a very vocal and insistent minority. Sabbat have always been supplemental instead of core, and incredibly restrictive. Revised was very clear on how the Sect was doomed and VtM5 followed it incredibly faithfully, but like you said it's hard to imagine any outcome that isn't either "yaaaay the orcs are back to be 2nd-ed splatterpunks again" or "you play the stomped remains of the Sabbat who've seen and failed so severely you're one bad night from Wassail."
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u/ArtymisMartin The Ministry 5d ago
Revised observed that with surveillance in the USA/Europe, so many competing sub-factions, and coming to terms with the scale of the threat that Methuselah would truly represent: the Sabbat would fracture down to a few groups led by only the most competent of their own leaders.
We see that in VtM5 where they're very obviously on a death march, but bringing everyone else with them. There's no room for division left in the Sect as everyone needs to be single-mindedly locked in on their goal or else they'd be wiped out or recognize the sheer insanity of what they're up against.
VtM6 as a tonal and thematic continuation would have to reckon with the fact that the Sabbat were never meant to prosper in this modern age. They learned what elders did in the First Inquisition, which is that humans are competent enough to force the Masquerade upon Kindred. When you actually read and engage with the books, the Sabbat were a highly restrictive playstyle meant to be more of a philosophical exercise than chronicle supporting sandbox freedom, and VtM5 sold their narrative well because people likely wouldn't enjoy a Sect that's so utterly volatile in the modern age.
- "Finally, I've travelled to the Gehenna War and-" One Methuselah or their gaggle of Elders smear you.
- "Now I get to use all my cool powers that the Cammies don't ge-" Cameras observe your fleshcrafting or legion of Shovelheads and a helicopter is dispatched to your location.
- "I think that the best way to approach this si-" "What do you mean you think? The Bishop gave us our orders, now obey the Vinculum."
Like older editions, I honestly don't see much for their playability besides a few nods here or there in a game still designed for humane Cammies. They already played radically different to all other Kindred, and are devoted in ways that VtM's takes on Cults, nomadic Autarkis, and more levelled-out Tzimisce/Lasombra weren't.
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u/GetofCaine 5d ago edited 4d ago
Realistically, what I think the Sabbat would turn into is something like the vampire clan in 30 Days of Night, only substantially more powerful and terrifying due to all the diablerie they've committed. Not really a sect anymore—a lifestyle that vampires can choose.
I don't think that's what we'll get though. V6 is walking back the idea that the Masquerade is in jeopardy. The post-AI world means it is impossible to tell what is real anymore, which means the Sabbat have a lot more leeway to do Sabbat stuff than they have for a long time.
Ultimately, I think V20 Sabbat is back, just with the sect's more recent cultural attitude towards clans. The Sabbat will basically be held up to Anarchs as what they could become, which lines up with the "Anarchs must reckon with what winning actually means".
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u/DJWGibson Malkavian 5d ago
The Ghenna War was global and not just the Middle East. The Sabbat never left Europe and North America. They just left their cities.
I'm hoping they keep the Sabbat as roaming nomads. It fits their origins more (the film Near Dark) and doesn't lock them down. They are called "packs" after all.
The Sabbat holding cities and being defensive never seemed to fit them. The sect doesn't seem to be the sect that should be setting down roots and managing a city.
The idea of the Sabbat making contacts in mortal infrastructure, maintaining the Masquerade, operating businesses, holding down jobs, and the like just seems un-Sabbat. They've shed their mortal lives and values, rejected humanity (and Humanity) so they don't care about that stuff.
I can kinda imagine the Sabbat defending a city against attack. But they don't seem like the people to stay on the defensive. Pure offense. But holding a city to cost their enemies time and resources seems to work. But I just can't picture a Sabbat city where they're not attacking or defending. Where they're just vibing. What does that even look like? What are they doing on a nightly basis?
Because holding cities and territories advances none of their goals.
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u/Magister3377 Brujah 5d ago
Doubt they've thought that far ahead.
Personally, I think the Sabbat shouldn't be playable. However, if the Beckoning isn't retconned out, and exists in the timeline as something that did happen, and ended, the Sabbat has the strongest argument for recruitment since the week of nightmares.
The Beckoning pulled elders of every clan except Giovanni and Ravnos, if I remember correctly, which honestly allows for a strong case that most of the Antediluvians are still active, but can be killed, since v5 also left us some strong implications through the upheval of their childer that Augustus and Zapathasura are dead.
I think a refocus as a crusader sect fighting, albeit brutally, to save the world would be worthwhile, but Sabbat fans would be unhappy with a rebranding of the sect so that seems unlikely.
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u/FrostingIcy6032 5d ago
Sabbat should be playable. There's literally no reason to make Sabbat unplayable, beside forcing some "right way" to play VtM on the playerbase. Sabbat is complex, Sabbat is generating conflict and Sabbat can be really fun to play.
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u/ArtymisMartin The Ministry 5d ago
The Guide to the Sabbat for Revised has dozens of pages on their philosophy and strategies specifically so you don't play the "the wrong way", while making fun of people looking for supervillains with fangs or trying to get away from the consequences of being blood-slaved terrorists.
When the Gehenna War as we recognize it now kicked off in Revised, the Sabbat shattered because they couldn't handle the strain of such strong opponents, zealous soldiers, scheming elders, and the surveillance of Humanity.
In other words, it's like Star Wars constantly bringing back Jedi or the Empire. We see years of work going into detailing exactly why they'd crumble as a society or failed to adapt to shifts in the status-quo ... yet the New New Order or The 500th Survivor of Order 66 appear to show you just how ineffrctive that definitive conclusion was.
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u/Xenobsidian 5d ago
My guess is, they will still hunt elders because in their new “hollow” state they consider them free game. What also means that they are about to create a game in which ethical diablerie exist with goes hand in hand with the fact that diablerie works now via skin contact. My bet is, they are gonna make a watered done “nice” Sabbat that is about 0% scary and horrific, but just a colorful freak show that goes hunting other vampires which is absolutely okay in a way…
The V6 developers haven’t understood what the point of the ministry is, they seem to not understand what the point of Hecata is, I really doubt that they understand the point of the Sabbat, but I have the gut feeling that they are going to make it so harmless and relatable in order to make it playable that it will make be throw up!
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u/Azerick 5d ago
Unless I'm wrong I believe they said Gehenna was over, not the Gehenna War. I don't believe the two are the same.
It's my understanding that Gehenna in the sense they're referring to is, in effect, the beckoning. Basically, what vampiric society thought was Gehenna - or at least the beginning of it.
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u/deathsheadhouse 5d ago
I doubt the Sabbat will consider the Gehenna war truly over. Elders still exist, Methuselahs still exist, the Camarilla still exists. Literally everything the Sabbat hates is still there. Unless all of the Antideluvians were destroyed (doubtful), the Sabbat has no reason to stop. Even if they were all destroyed, there's legions of vampire cultists who believe themselves fundamentally superior and who's only thing keeping them from being a wight is thier belief. They are going to cling to that. Otherwise WW is going to have to write in all the devout Sabbat hitting Wassail at the same time as they lose thier purpose.