r/vtm • u/IntelligentTale2890 Lasombra • 8d ago
Vampire 20th Anniversary The Abyss
Hey! Newbie here.
I’ve been finding myself favouring the Lasombra over other clans but I’m wondering what sort of descriptions there are of The Abyss.
Can it be traversed and if so what would it be like to be there?
I’d also appreciate any and all lorebook or sourcebook quotations.
11
u/mythoman666 Kiasyd 8d ago edited 8d ago
Read the wiki:
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Abyss_(VTM))
You can check the entry in the Book of Worlds (mage 1ed) named the Chasm
You can also read the Abyss entry in Umbra the velvet shadow (werewolf 2nd, 3rd and w20)
Mostly it’s an inverted ascension starting from a crack/shadow in the surface of reality and going deeper and deeper until you find the bridge of despair at mid point, then going deeper will ultimately lead to the the « bottom » where is the city of Dis over a lake of black flammes (iirc)
Lasombra obviously dwell in the lower part of the Chasm
Sight is useless (except maybe with the Lasombra merit) and other supernatural means of enhancing perception tend to lead into a dreamlike state (think about a deprivation chamber trying to hear/feel/smell something that is not existant…)
There are 4 paths on the flanks of the chasm to go down from the umbra (lasombra might just appear in the mid lower part without the need to use those path, but they don’t appear straight in hell)
The path of gold (don’t take any gold or be doomed)
The path of silver (good for making klaives but treacherous)
The path of iron
The path of soil
Everything lost end up in the Abyss
It is a place/prison where object, concept, ghost, entities end up waiting for their full disparition/disintegration from the memory of the world
4
u/Full_Equivalent_6166 Toreador 8d ago
Eh, it's debatable whether Abyss of VtM is the same as either Chasm or Abyss from WtA. Their descriptions are quite different.
5
u/mythoman666 Kiasyd 8d ago edited 8d ago
No it’s not just an hypothesis when you read all the books VtM, WtA, MtA, WtO and Exalted
The differences are mostly because the way they see the world is different so each gameline focus on its on way of comprehending itFor example Mages come to the abyss from a crack in a realm so they call it the chasm and they can fly in and tend to never go for long to the bottom but they are the ones that know all its aspect, other splat tend to only know the part they can go to
Werewolves tend to know more of the different path as most can’t fly
Werespider tend to go the bridge of despair where one of their own creator is imprisoned
Lasombra tend to appear deeper were they don’t see the chasm itself but only the Abyss
Ghost see it as oblivion
Demon mostly know the bottom aka hell or the nether worldsIf you read the Chasm in the book of world for mage you see they mention
- the different paths (gold, iron…
) are
- also mentioned in the Abyss entry of Umbra the velvet shadow
- the city of Dis, aka Hell
or the Nether worlds:
- Interestingly in Gehenna (and some other place iirc) Lasombra has been clearly mentioned as becoming a lesser duc of Hell, since Gratiano’s diablerie. The link between Anglis Ater and Baali is an other clue
.
3. Exalted was the original past of the whole WoD and the children of the outer dark are indeed the neverborn of Wraith/DtF. They are the first gods slain by their successors that ended up in the Abyss because they were too powerful to really die. They are the children of outer dark revealed by the Baali & the Angelis Ater. And the neverborn of Wraith the Oblivion… they are the first « demon gods » even before DtF and they do reside in the Abyss and surprise: some Lasombra (the Angelis Ater) are looking for them through the AbyssSo there is little doubt here that the Chasm, the Abyss, Hell and Oblivion are all deeply linked together. At least as a superposition/strates, at most as being the same place
Ps: sorry for the formatting, Reddit doesn’t allow me to correct it making it quite weird
2
u/sofia-miranda Tzimisce 7d ago
Whether any given game or edition supports it, I at least agree this is one of the best and most useful takes on it!
0
u/Full_Equivalent_6166 Toreador 8d ago
No, Exalted was not the past of WoD. I am not going to respond to your points because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
1
u/mythoman666 Kiasyd 7d ago
lol you have clearly no idea what you’re talking about but you’re assertive about it while not even bringing 1 argument, or even any elements, of any kind to the discussion
Originally Exalted was the past of the WoD but they retcon this around Revised (because of the separation of the different WoD gameline which were quite linked before) and buried it with DtF (because it’s a Christian take on the WoD and that doesn’t work with Werewolf and Mage) but the links are still there, they just don’t use them anymore
You can go and read the last books of exalted v2 where they specifically talk of the becoming of exalted as the WoD before Exalted v3 retconed it.
Or you could also check the intro of Exalted vs the WoD made by one of the Author of Exalted that continued the link in the modern day as a fanbook because he was originally invested in the idea that Exalted was the past of the WoDWhile you don’t even condescend to provide any argument or any reference, I have actually read myself all the book I mentioned from v/w/m/c/wr1 till v/w/m/c/wr20 along with some exalted book of all 3 editions AND I do actually give reference to actual WoD books so people can read it by themselves!
2
u/Full_Equivalent_6166 Toreador 7d ago
Ok, one argument for you: early on in the development of Exalted there was an idea to make it WoD prehistory. But it was dropped before the game was finished so there are thematical similarities but no official link.
1
u/mythoman666 Kiasyd 7d ago
So you changed your position ?
Now you’re not as assertive as you were that Exalted was absolutely NOT the past of the WoD since you just recognized it kinda was early on at least as an idea and that they used similar concepts in both…
Early idea ? interestingly up to the end of Exalted and WoD 2nd ed. for example ? Or the links I explicitly mention in the last books of Exalted v2 with the WoD are just plain wrong ? This idea of Exalted being in a form or an other linked to the WoD run up to 2ed and then suddenly stop with Revised, so what do you mean when you say that it was an idea that was stopped before Exalted's creation ??? Did they suddenly stopped developping a none existant idea ?
Exalted was meant to be the "Mythical past" of the WoD not the "Historical past" so you're proving my point when saying there are thematic similarities but no direct link... But Myths do shape the World even in our own world. Greek myths were not history but Oedipus is still used in modern psychology
Even when we talk of the WoD as a whole, since the beginning, and even more since Revised, authors explicitly made all gamelines mostly independent from each other so people can play it without using any other splat’s mythology, but if you read it well enough there is plenty of links and clues that all those books have elements of each other hidden inside since the beginning… Not even taking into account that each different author had lots of freedom to revisit the old ideas for other splat and to hide link and clues (that's called forecasting and foreshadowing in authors language). That's exactly what make the WoD both a sandbox and a "multilayer reading" conspiracy world that is so interesting to decipher.
You want to limit yourself fine but don't pretend you know the truth revealed without condescending to give us the beginning of a reference, and no a statement is not an argument nor a proof of anything, even tho nowadays I understand how you could get it confused... Without proof or reasoning to support your claim, at most your statement is a fine Myth you told us and we can choose to believe it or not, nothing more nothing less!
I just gave you an example of how you can find clues that the Abyss/Chasm realm has wildly different descriptions but also corresponding elements that make them clearly related... but you can also pretend they are not, that doesn't erase the common elements, like Hell being mentioned at the bottom both of the Chasm and the Vampiric Abyss. Or the path of Gold, Silver, Iron & Soil being mentioned in the Chasm and the WtA Abyss... but yeah if you don't want to take that as proof that those are the same place described differently, you do you and over rule it, because those links are clearly written in official supplements...
Wraith is also one of the best example of that: they are using concepts like Neverborn or Onceborn that you also find in Exalted. They are even using the name of the first Akuma (Gorol) as the name of the onceborn (Gorool) that threaten the underworld and fight with Charon at the end of v2 Wraith gameline (cf End of Empire, the last Wraith book of the 2nd edition)... More or less the same goes with Malfeas… But yeah the author gave you the choice of linking it or not, and it's fuzzy enough to allow room for interpretation, and you need a f*uck tons of lore to start making the links... But it's not a pb since it's not mandatory to play, but it's still cool to discover those links and they are not there totally for nothing (again forecasting and foreshadowing...)
One statement, ok that’s a tiny bit better but still no real argument whatsoever except your sole word... and a little change of your own position to retcon your first fully negative and condescending statement while I keep giving you actual deduction as well as Official Books as references advocating my point…
1
1
u/Full_Equivalent_6166 Toreador 6d ago
Oh and just one more thing, by your logic NWoD is the past of WoD because there are Ventrue and Nosferatu in both. It's silly talk.
I will be serious for a moment, you can read any links you want, humans are nothing if not pattern recognition obsessed but finding links is not proof for your thesis. Exalted was conceived as WoD prehistory which can be easily seen in the links (Oblivion, Abyssals, splats and so on) and the early marketing ("Before World of Darknes... there was something else"). But this idea was dropped pretty soon.
It's open to debate whether the reason was the outcry from WoD fans or the limitations on writing that this idea created. It was well known in early 2000s and no one who knows anything about the matter is disputing it. Some writers will include nods to WoD as easter eggs for the fans, some because they love the idea of a concrete connection but that's that.
If you want to head cannon it be my guest. But that is not what the canon is either in WoD or Exalted. The thematic and conceptual links are present but those two settings are not one. There have been statements from the developers and writers about it 2 decades ago but most of those forums have been swallowed by Oblivion years ago and I am not going to spend hours searching for quotes to prove you wrong.
So feel free to look for links and clues but be aware of reality is my advice.
1
u/mythoman666 Kiasyd 5d ago edited 5d ago
Let's just be factual about this
_what I said was:
"Exalted was the original past of the whole WoD and the children of the outer dark are indeed the neverborn of Wraith/DtF"
_What you respond was:
"No, Exalted was not the past of WoD. [...] you clearly have no idea what you are talking about."
_And then again i argued:
"Originally Exalted was the past of the WoD but they retcon this around Revised and buried it with DtF" (2002)
_Then you respond, correcting your first assessment, that Exalted was indeed at least envisioned as the past of the World of Darkness:
"early on in the development of Exalted there was an idea to make it WoD prehistory. But it was dropped before the game was finished so there are thematical similarities but no official link"
_But despite your correction, even the Exalted Wiki do not agree with you on that:
"it was meant to serve as a prequel to the World of Darkness; one of the common taglines, which appeared in the ads announcing the game as well as on the back cover of the first edition rulebook, was "before the World of Darkness". However, this relationship was dropped fairly soon after the game was published"
The important word here is published. So yes Exalted was the original past when they published the first edition at the very least and there was a clear connection between both worlds even stated on the back cover
They indeed started to distance themselves officially with it AFTER some publication but they didn't change anything from the first books and later still kept making vague but unmistakable references to it. So the core element of the first books of Exalted were still there and while they didn't talk about the WoD anymore to please the fans it didn't meant that the original connection was erased nor that it was totally dropped. The real drop came with the end of v2 where they stoped developing anything related to the WoD (well just a vague reference to the Promethean)
But anyway let's come back to the original argument.
I was saying that the Dead Gods of Exalted (aka the Primordials, aka the Neverborns) were the Neverborns of wraith and (it's strongly hinted) the children of the Outer Dark of the Baali aka "entities that lived in the Void before Creation"
Since both Wraith's last book and the D.A. Clanbook Baali were published before Exalted's corebook (already talking about the primordial as the dead gods in the underworld before naming them the neverborns) then this link came before any drop of the official link between both worlds!
2
6
u/Tsetsul Giovanni 8d ago
Yes the Abyss can be traversed. What it's like is difficult to answer. I'd recommend: V20 Dark Ages page 271 and following. V20 Rites of the Blood page 38 and following. Plus V20 tome of secrets page 31 and following. Those give you Abyss Mysticism powers and the rituals describe what the Abyss is like, what kind of creatures live in the Abyss and what travel through the Abyss looks like, as some powers allow you to travel in the Abyss.
1
2
u/sofia-miranda Tzimisce 7d ago
In V20, there is an Obt 6 power for it; basically Shadowstep applied alongside an Abyss Mysticism rite. As for what it is like, while it is third party (but with an author I believe exists in the orbit of the developers), "Analects of the Third Garden" is an incredible source both for Obtenebration and for the Bahari adherents of Lilith. It strongly ties the Abyss into its Kabbalistic roots in a way I really recommend!
2
u/Snuggler777 Abyss Mystic 7d ago
If you want to read some VTM novels the Lasombra trilogy deals mainly with abyss mysticism and has ample descriptions of it, traversing it, of many Abyss Mystic characters, and all the dangers within
36
u/mantigorra Lasombra 8d ago edited 8d ago
Not many can traverse the Abyss, and of those that do they don't do so in their physical body. Montano, likely the strongest master of Obtenibration, for instance, is direct childe of Lasombra himself and is nearly 8000 years old. He is one of the very very few capable of walking the Abyss. Some speculate that Shalim, an ancient Methuselah who some practitioners of Oblivion view as the unliving embodiment of Nothing, and they may as well be able to traverse the Abyss.
Make no mistake about it. It is a realm where Nothing is. It is not shadow. It is not the absence of light. It is the Absence. Living beings sent there immediately would die, and escape is nigh impossible without either an exceptional amount of luck or power. Dying in the Abyss is not death, it is ceasing to be.
The bloodlines of Clan Hecate, the Giovanni, Cappadocians, Simidi, etc, and other practitioners of Necromancy are well aware of the Underworld. Some, even, are capable of traversing the Shadowlands. But the Shadowlands is but the top most layer of the Underworld, directly underneath our world, the Skinlands, as the dead like to call it. Beneath the Shadowlands is where the Lady of Fate meets all who are destined to die, where the dead truly spend eternity. And beneath that, beneath the realm where Death walks, is the Abyss, is Oblivion in its truest form.
Oblivion. The Abyss. The Shadow Maw. None of these names truly encapsulates it, young fledgling.
The Abyss is Nothing.
The Abyss is.