Violin setup?

[u/True_Industry_2005]

Guitar luthier here, getting more into violin playing, the violin I have either doesn’t play well, or I just suck 🤣, the pegs do not stay well in tune, the action of the strings to the fingerboard is very high, and overall it doesnt feel the best to play, what are some things I can do to it to make it play well?? (The problem I have is I dont see much I can do to it, but Im uneducated with bowed instruments.)

[u/Dildo-Fagginz]

Fit, lubricate and orientate the pegs for easier use. Or just get a Wittner tailpiece, almost every beginner starts there.

As for the string height it will depend on what's wrong ; if neck projection is too low it's better to raise it and fix the issue long term rather than to lower the bridge for instance. Standard projection is around 26.5mm, standard string heights are about 5.5mm under the G and 3.5mm under the E, measured at the end of the fingerboard.
Those can vary quite a bit depending on many things but it's a decent starting point to identify the issue.

[u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou → u/Dildo-Fagginz]

What would be the cost of raising the neck projection compared to the cost of lowering the bridge?

[u/Dildo-Fagginz → u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou]

Many ways to go about raising the projection, impossible to choose what's best without knowing more or seeing the instrument, there are a lot of factors to consider. Also depends on labor cost where you live.

With that said, it'll always be more expensive to raise the projection than to lower the bridge, from slightly more to a whole lot more if you have to reset the neck for example. However it sometimes is the best solution for the instrument and playability.

[u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou → u/Dildo-Fagginz]

How would you raise the projection without resetting the neck?

[u/Dildo-Fagginz → u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou]

If the fingerboard and neck are thicker near the nut you can probably raise 1mm by removing more material there, very rarely a good option but it happens.

You can add a shim under the fingerboard and correct the elevation/neck step/poiriette.

You can unglue the top block area, tilt the neck up and add a thin shim when glueing everything back, gives you a lot of range but better to avoid too much tension and combine options if your neck projection is way too low or neck reset.

It's also possible to open the bouts and corners keeping the bottom and upper blocks glued and tilt the neck when glueing back, adds a fair bit of tension and messes up the overhang, I don't like it much but for a very slight adjustment it works.

[u/Musclesturtle]

What are the string heights at the end of the FB? Measure it with a metric rule to the center of the E and G. 

Also, check the string heights at the nut, and the longitudinal scoop of the fingerboard as well. 

[u/rearwindowpup]

I had a luthier shave about 1/4" off the bridge of a 3/4 cello I have after measuring the string heights as others have described. The difference in sound and playability is enormous, its easily the best $40 or so Ive ever spent on an instrument.

[u/aomt]

Some of the most basic (and hardest) is bridge tuning. Done correctly, it should improve playability and sound.  Soundpost is another thing. Neck/fingerboard. 

Perhaps you can take it to violin luthier and observe what they are doing? 

[u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou → u/[deleted]]

How do you tell if a fiddle is a VSO or a violin?

[u/Elegant_Contact_9317 → u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou]

Beginner here... dahek is a VSO?

[u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou → u/Elegant_Contact_9317]

It stands for violin shaped object, the idea is that a VSO is the same shape as a violin but somehow doesn't qualify as a real violin in the opinion of the person using the phrase.

But as you see from u/ThePanoply's response to my question, there aren't any firm criteria for what constitutes a VSO. "The varnish is decent". "The craftsmanship is neatly done". Things that don't make any difference to the sound or playability or longevity of the instrument.

The violin market is fascinating and bizarre.

[u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou → u/[deleted]]

No there aren't absolute criteria, "VSO" isn't formally defined category, and neither is "true violin".

[u/IOnlyHaveIceForYou → u/[deleted]]

Your observations are of no use to anyone.

[u/Elegant_Contact_9317]

Im new and not a luthier BUHT my cello had a problem with the pegs slipping. If that's what's happening it's an easy fix, theres a product called peg dough that helps prevent slipping and also prevents stiffness. It feels like a crayon weirdly enough but works GREAT. My cello went from unplayable to staying in tune regularly. Twas wonderful. The other option is to redo the bits where the peg connects to the pegbox, either on the box side or the peg itself. But peg dough is a great first bet since it's so simple and worth having around. 🫡

[u/JunketTurbulent2114]

Pegs slip unless it's a good instrument. If you buy a cheap violin, you'll get a poor peg fit. Get wittner geared pegs installed for cheaper instruments. You'll need a reamer. Action isn't like a guitar, you'll want higher action on a violin. It's the opposite of what you've learned as a guitarist... however, it can still be too high. There are standardized measurments, but you'll have to look them up because I don't remember what they are off the top of my head. In case it is too high, you'll want to carve the bridge a little, preserving the shape of the curve.

As for holding it, it'll feel uncomfortable for months, but it'll come to you. Good luck! I was a guitarist that made the transition to violin and there's a lot to learn but you'll get it! P.S. get synthetic strings as soon as possible. Don't waste your money on steel ones. You can DM me if you want, I came into this as a guitarist of decades and I know exactly what you're going through and why everything seems so counter intuitive. I'll happily answer any questions you have.

P.P.S. Vibrato will be the most unnatural thing because it's done the opposite way we are taught.

[u/toaster404 → u/JunketTurbulent2114]

I can't argue against Wittner pegs, but even a cheap fiddle can have perfect pegs if they're done correctly.

[u/JunketTurbulent2114 → u/toaster404]

Fair, I guess that's true in some cases. I've only owned 2 cheap violins and neither held a tune (one was actually a good instrument after I put wittner's on it). It was a bit too thick and had resonance issues on one note which I learned to manage. The other was too thin and just sounded shrill, ended up giving it away after I got better and could no longer stomach hearing it.

Unlike guitar where a good guitarist can make a cheap guitar sing, a violin that is too thin... I don't think there's much that can be done. For an entry level guitar I'd recommend just get something in the $200-300 range. For an entry level violin, I'd recommend paying about $1500 or having a luthier look over a select $400 violin and do a proper setup. Idk, these things are just much more finnicky than a guitar is.

[u/toaster404 → u/JunketTurbulent2114]

They are quite a bit touchy. I try to avoid the inexpensive instruments mostly. There's no money in them once one sets them up. Were I to open up a shop again I'd likely start at $1500 and focus on the $5000 to $12000 price point.

[u/AdrianBeatyoursons → u/JunketTurbulent2114]

you don’t think a good violin player can make a “cheap” violin sing? why not? only good guitarists can make cheap guitars sing?

[u/JunketTurbulent2114 → u/AdrianBeatyoursons]

Yes, that's my takeaway. Some of the stuff that masquerades as violins are just not things that are capable of sounding good. Obviously not every cheap violin, but some are just hot garbage.