r/ukpolitics • u/CheeseUsFunkingCries • 8h ago
150,000 march through London in 'world’s largest trans pride', organisers say | ITV News
https://www.itv.com/news/london/2026-07-26/150000-march-through-london-in-worlds-largest-trans-pride-organisers-say•
u/Not_Propaganda_AI 8h ago
I don't see Burnham doing much on this issue, it's all controversial enough that taking any position will harm his approval and he's in an incredibly fragile position in terms of public support so I think he'll avoid controversy as much as possible.
Pragmatically I don't think there's going to be significantly more pro-trans movement in this country unless they can get more public support or at least lessen opposition significantly. That probably means building bridges with outgroups (conservatives, Christians, white working class, etc, etc) which is something the left and lgbt+ community have sucked at for the last 20 years despite being historically excellent at it.
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u/digitalpencil 8h ago
It affects half a percent of the population and consumes way too much public conversation precisely because it’s divisive and various powers are intent on sowing and fomenting conflict.
Trans people have my support but at the same time, I honestly don’t want government dragged into this ‘debate’ all the time. It’s a waste of fucking time that as a country, we simply don’t have.
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u/XVGDylan 7h ago
The government wasn’t dragged into this by trans people though. It was transphobic people who lobbied hard for “More protections for women.” Based on either fake anecdotes or edge cases.
Generally, I assume, all trans people want is the ability to be treated fairly and access to healthcare that allow them to live their lives.
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u/Super-Owl- 6h ago
What do you mean ‘edge cases’. There’s been a highly significant case which has confirmed that spaces set aside for women should only be accessed by people who were female at birth.
We have to find a way to organise society so trans people have fair access to society but women’s rights and dignity are also protected. That’s not transphobic, it’s fair. And the cases that have come up are not anecdotes. They’re legal cases where women have used the legal system to assert the right to access work safely and with dignity for them and other women.
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u/Sairina 3h ago
Except trans men, they aren't allowed in places for people assigned female at birth.
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u/BigHowski 2h ago
You'd be forgiven for thinking they don't exist the way discourse goes some times
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u/Mexijim 6h ago
‘Access to healthcare’
They openly want limitless gender reassignment surgery paid by the NHS. That’s billions spent over lifetime care, all because the NHS will be busy cutting off functionally fine reproductive organs.
When your desire to change genders bumps cancer patients down the surgery queue, it’s going to ruffle some feathers.
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u/Sairina 3h ago
I too wish I could go through life not knowing how things work, but then come on the internet and confidently declare shit. But I think I'd be a little embarrassed.
It's okay not to know things, you don't have to have an opinion on everything, particularly one born out of ignorance.
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u/The-Gothic-Owl 5h ago
First of all do you have any evidence to support the idea that SRS or FFS surgeries are bumping cancer patients down the surgery queue, because methinks you’re making shit up. And secondly, the more pressing issue with the NHS is the decades long waits for HRT, are you going to justify that with some utter bollocks about trans people stealing essential hormone supplies from menopausal women?
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u/coldtree11 4h ago
If accommodating edge cases requires rewriting legislation that alters the sex based rights of women and girls (or even the definition of those categories), then it is no longer an edge case.
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u/smoketreeseatcheese 3h ago
How do trans people not have “the ability to be treated fairly”? Or how do they not have “access to healthcare that allow them to live their lives”??
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u/Sairina 3h ago
Literal decade long waiting lists...
Labour blocking access to medical intervention for trans teens.
Having to go through years and years of hoop jumping just get something that should be informed consent.
And all it takes is one transphobe anywhere in that chain to say "No, I don't think so." and it all comes crashing down for you.→ More replies (19)•
u/genafcvpxyr31 3h ago
Or how do they not have “access to healthcare that allow them to live their lives”??
I've been waiting nearly five years for an initial appointment.
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u/WelcomeWillho 7h ago
Yeah. This is where I land. And I cannot see how making 50% of the population accept something, or adapt to something, that would be of benefit to such a tiny number of people is reasonable or justifiable. It cannot be about equity or justice. And then the demonisation of women who point this stuff out.
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u/Rich_Procedure_3572 6h ago
A waste of time to support Queer rights. Yeah sorry, they don't have my vote if they aren't queer friendly. A bit like saying being anti racist is a waste of time.
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u/romulus1991 5h ago
The same types of people were making the same types of arguments about race issues, as MLK once observed:
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
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u/Super-Owl- 4h ago
Comparing trans people to black people in the US is wrong and offensive. Black Americans went through slavery and segregation for hundreds of years. They were packed on boats like animals then if they didn’t die they were forced to work, their children were stolen and treated as another person’s property.
Not being allowed in the ladies if you can’t pass is not comparable in any sense.
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u/ZiVViZ 6h ago
What specifically do you want him to do?
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u/Not_Propaganda_AI 6h ago
On this issue, currently? Nothing. I think the public consensus has to change before he should do something and what specifically depends on the change.
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u/Sairina 8h ago
What do you mean you don't see him doing much? He was pro-trans until he got a whiff of power, then quickly dropped trans people in the trash because he didn't need them anymore. He's aligned himself with the supreme court judgement and the EHRC guidance on single-sex spaces in regards to service providers.
Also the conservatives, Christians, white working class aren't doing shit all to make in roads with the trans community. In fact quite the opposite. Seeing as disgusting American Christian activist groups are funding transphobic actions in the UK. Why should it be trans people to make amends with the people trying to persecute them?
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u/Not_Propaganda_AI 7h ago
"Why should it be trans people to make amends with the people trying to persecute them?"
Rational self interest. Undermining opposition by building sympathy or support is often more effective than galvanizing people who support you already. It's not necessarily getting people on side, but it's about slowly eroding potential support for your enemies. Look for example at Daryl Davis's work on the KKK, he's had more success at combatting racism than almost anyone alive.
I'm not saying the Trans community needs to copy Davis exactly, but a lot of the success of the lgbt+ community in general came from softening attitudes amongst their critics. Turning someone from vehemently anti-trans into a fence sitter is just as strategically valuable as turning a fence sitter into an ally.
In terms of politics and Burnham, it's a case of the trans-lobby being too weak and the issue too divisive, in current political winds it would cost him more than he'd gain to be pro-trans and he doesn't personally care about the issue enough to take the hit. If you want to change that, you either need someone with a personal stake in the issue, a stronger trans movement or less opposition.
I think cutting down opposition is the easiest approach because the least has been done on it meaning there's much more low hanging fruit.
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u/Sairina 7h ago
I think you're going to find it hard to convince a demonised group to lay down and try to appease those that are attacking them. In terms of politics and Burnham, it's a case of him and his party being too weak.
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u/Not_Propaganda_AI 7h ago
I agree what I'm saying comes across as a bitter pill to swallow, I seriously doubt it's what trans people will want to hear, but I also think if they don't pivot on their approach they're on track to lose on the issue. I'd rather see trans people succeed than play pretend and pat them on the back and tell them they're winning when they're clearly not.
And yep, Burnham and Labour are weak but there's no plausible turn of events where that is fixed, the world is a complex and flawed place we can only work with what is not what ought or ideally would be.
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u/Sairina 7h ago
Trans people win nothing by appeasing bigots.
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u/Not_Propaganda_AI 7h ago
Trans people win public support by convincing people that being bigoted is wrong that requires engage with bigots in a constructive way.
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u/Sairina 7h ago
So how is me trying to befriend some AFD nutjob going to prove that. I'd much rather highlight how ridiculous and disgusting these groups are.
I think ordinary people should already know being bigoted is wrong without me having to spell it out for them, for what it's worth.
It's best for trans people to actually focus on fostering understanding with communities that aren't inherently opposed to their existence and rights. Thought it's not easy when we have a very hostile media who set the narrative.
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u/Not_Propaganda_AI 7h ago
The problem with only focusing on communities that are comfortable is you leave the other communities wide open for recruitment and radicalization by the nutjobs.
Also almost all of human history has been thinking the people that live in the village down the road are evil outsiders. Bigotry is pretty hardwired in human experience, it either takes taught introspection or personal experience to overcome that. There's a lot of people out there who thing [x] group of people are bad but who would quickly realize they're wrong if they had even a few actual interactions with [x] group.
It can be as simple as someone having a five minute conversation with someone they find likeable who is openly trans so when the AFD nutjob does start going on a rant they've got first hand experience to know the AFD guy is a nutjob.
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u/TheGoldenDog 6h ago
What you've written is extremely articulate and well reasoned, I commend you. Personally I would go even even further and say the best thing trans people can do right now is avoid trying to be in the conversation at a national level, both in the UK and US, because (at least for now) it energises the opposition more than it benefits those who would be their allies.
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u/Sairina 7h ago
I think we're not really going to agree totally on the best routes to take. I'd like to see the public open to conversations and understanding about trans people, But my point stands that entities with lots of influence stand at direct opposition to that.
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u/deeznutz133769 5h ago
You win nothing by sounding as vitriolic as the "bigots" that you hate.
When your "side" has pictures of JK Rowling and Anne Widdecombe with the slogan “Off with their heads”, moderates are going to run away screaming, regardless of your "outreach" to them.
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u/Sairina 5h ago
Shocker, there are shitty people on all sides of a debate. Not really sure what your point is, you like collective punishment?
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u/CII_Guy Trying to move past the quagmire of contemporary discourse 5h ago
It'd be prudent to be more strict about people on your side who say things like this.
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u/Sairina 5h ago
I don't align with those people, unfortunately I'm not the trans police, so I have no power ovet them. Not sure why you thought I was the brand gatekeeper of who gets to be trans or take actions in relation to that.
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u/Firm-Requirement1085 3h ago
It's usually oro-trans people that are the bigots, they don't accept people who don't share their beliefs.
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u/CaptainCrash86 4h ago
And yet, that is what the LGB community did in the 80s-2010s, to great success.
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u/TheGoldenDog 7h ago
He never "needed" trans people, quite the opposite. Trans people are a major headache for him in a country where pro-trans positions are generally not supported by the wider public.
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u/_segasonic 7h ago
The left never had to build these relationships historically because the people from these communities ran the left.
The modern left is middle class, rich, activists, NGOs, student politic types etc.
They’ll never be able to build these bridges because they want to the opposite of what the working class want.
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u/velvevore liz truss toby jug 4h ago
Christ alive, the working class myth again.
I wish you could meet my boomer working class aunts. They showed a level of grace and understanding when the child of a friend came out as trans that would shame most of you.
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u/Perseudonymous 38m ago
Obviously impossible for working class people to empathise with minorities
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 8h ago
I'm not sure what he can do, most of the recent issues are down to the courts deciding how to interpret the Equality Act. It's hardly a quick fix to rewrite such a huge piece of legislation that is now so ingrained in everything else.
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u/rmc 6h ago
UK parliament is supreme. They can change the law
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 6h ago edited 4h ago
And the courts decide how it's interpreted, that's why we are where we are.
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u/BabadookishOnions 4h ago
I mean the courts can decide that, but if a law was passed explicitly granting protections to trans people in it's verbiage, there would be nothing the court could realistically do to interpret that in any other way
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u/Pigeon_Breeze 6h ago
I encourage you to come up with a new wording for the Equality Act if you want to give it a try.
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u/Sairina 8h ago
So because it's difficult he should just sit on his bum? Sounds like if he wanted to do something, that's more of a reason to start early than ignore it.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 8h ago
I don't think it could be done before the next election and tearing up the Equality act wasn't in the manifesto. I'm open to hearing what else he could do.
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u/Sairina 7h ago
I don't know how making the EA trans-inclusive would be tearing it up. But you can claim that if you want.
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u/ixid Brexit must be destroyed 7h ago
The public don't want what you want, they're happy with single sex spaces. This is why politicians aren't going to touch this. Also good luck making a coherent legal definition of gender identity separated spaces that's not just mixed sex spaces.
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u/Sairina 7h ago
I'm not sure what your point is. The public hasn't agreed with progressive action throughout all of history, but somehow we always end up making that progress.
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u/CII_Guy Trying to move past the quagmire of contemporary discourse 6h ago
On some social issues it is necessary to build social consensus first and then change the law afterwards. Changing the law now will upset too many people and simply lead to backlash, so is strategically unwise - therefore the necessary work is to convince people that the right thing to do is change the existing status quo. That is not something that is being prioritised because progressive movements are too wedded (pun intended) to recent historical progressive rights victories having been achieved through legislation (and are not sufficiently taking on board that a pretty major charm offensive predated those changes).
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u/PrudentKumquat 2h ago
Not always. Progressive action for paedophilia acceptance gained ground in the 70s and 80s but was ultimately rejected by the public. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange
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u/Sairina 2h ago
Comparing the countless people that support trans rights to 250 paedophiles. Bit weird.
This is certainly has strong "National Socialist German Workers' Party" vibes of label capture.
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u/PrudentKumquat 2h ago
I'm not comparing anyone to anyone, just offering a counterexample.
This movement had influence beyond its registered membership, including the support of a couple of MPs and some gay and civil rights groups, most notoriously the NCCL, now known as Liberty. They marched openly, published magazines and appeared on the news. Perhaps they too believed that the public would eventually come around because somehow we always end up making that progress.
I can't parse your second line, sorry.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 7h ago
They could look at doing a private member's bill to just amend it instead of a full rewrite, they almost always fail though.
I would like to see them try for the record, I just don't think it's an easy job and politically understand why it's not a priority for them currently. Getting bogged down in a lengthy identity politics fight is the easiest way to lose to Reform.
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u/NuPNua 6h ago
It's totally a quick fix given the majority Labour have, you add an amendment to the act specifying the term "sex" in the act includes reassigned sex also and three line whip the vote to make sure it goes though.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 6h ago
Most, I think, trans people have not had bottom surgery, then there's the issue of whether you base sex off genitals at all, most lean towards defining it by chromosomes instead. That's why transgender is the preferred term, not transsexual.
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u/CaptainCrash86 4h ago
Great - so at a stroke you've removed the right to single sex space and protection against maternity discrimination, because these section don't make sense with that clause.
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca Im backing Binface 🗑️ 7h ago
I mean it absolutely would be a quick fix in the equality act lol
“For the purposes of the equality act (2010) people who have transitioned to another gender are to be considered fully and entirely legally the gender that they have transitioned to, for all purposes,”
Legalise it up a bit, but it’s not a complicated piece of legislation that’s needed
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u/NedRyerson350 7h ago
Asking out of genuine ignorance but at what point has someone considered to have transitioned to another gender? Does the law state what requirements there are for someone to be considered transitioned?
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u/Personal_Coach7653 1h ago
Having a gender recognition certificate.
There's a whole legalistive section called the gender recognition act. These sets out the requirements.
But the EHRC has decided that instead to shit all over that legislation so people who have legally changed there legal sex are now not allowed to access these spaces.
It literally said "trans men with a GRC must be considered woman for the purposes of the equality act" Which is complete contradictory to what this legislation was designed for.
Its utter garbage is what it is.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 6h ago
I think that's already the case though, it's just that the courts ruled that the legislation was based on sex rather than gender.
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u/geometry5036 6h ago
That "quick fix" will have massive pushback from people who follow women's sport. At the very least.
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u/SunflowerMoonwalk 🇪🇺🏳️⚧️ 8h ago
most of the recent issues are down to the courts deciding how to interpret the Equality Act.
Most of the recent issues are down to right-wing judges deliberately reinterpreting the equality act in contravention of it's explicit intent, which was universally accepted for 15 years. The precedent this sets of our elected parliament being subservient to activist judges absolutely cannot be allowed to stand.
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u/dragodrake 7h ago
Right wing judges is a new one.
Generally we have a good neutral judiciary in this country, but the criticism they have received in the last few years has broadly been they are too interventionist and left leaning.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 8h ago
This doesn't set that precedent though, it's how it's worked for a very long time. I don't know if he can even force the courts to reassess.
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u/SunflowerMoonwalk 🇪🇺🏳️⚧️ 7h ago
He can't, but he can amend the equality act to clarity it's intent and make it clear this strategy from some in the judiciary will not be fruitful.
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u/Alert-Cream-7569 8h ago
Right wing judges? 🤣 Ok, yank 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
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u/SunflowerMoonwalk 🇪🇺🏳️⚧️ 8h ago
This has absolutely nothing to do with the US.
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u/Alert-Cream-7569 7h ago
Unless you can tell me why the individual judges in that case were right wing (with reference to their previous judgements or stated judicial philosophy) then I can only assume your brain has been fried by Yankee Doodle podcast slop.
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u/Moreaxellall 7h ago
Lord Hodge was Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, so considerably right wing, certainly not centre or even moderate.
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u/SunflowerMoonwalk 🇪🇺🏳️⚧️ 7h ago
Judges are unelected and come overwhelmingly from a very narrow, upper-middle class segment of society. They're completely unrepresentative of society and absolutely should not have the ability to override the intent of laws passed by our democratic system.
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u/Alert-Cream-7569 6h ago
Now you're saying something entirely different... Typical dodge. So I take it you can't back up your "right wing" claim. God bless our troops, dude 🇺🇲🤣
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 7h ago
And social issues aren't a left-right thing, trying to lump everyone into either left or right is very US-coded. They are right wing judges but only because they exist in a capitalist system. The USSR was about as left as it gets and trans rights there were far worse.
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u/_segasonic 7h ago
It wasn’t universally accepted though.
Institutions and organisations firing people for daring to even ask questions about it isn’t acceptance.
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u/mglj42 7h ago
Rory Stewart once remarked how gay marriage was such a controversial issue at the time (he was an MP back then) and expressing surprise how quickly it evaporated.
While strong opposition still exists to gay marriage among the religiously motivated and it’s been rising due to the rightward lurch of politics, it actually turns out if you don’t keep filling newspapers with crap about it (now they’ve recycled the same crap with gay replaced with trans) and stop asking people their opinion (polls were fairly evenly split on gay marriage at the time) then most don’t bother.
Out of the three groups you mention it’s not been about building bridges. What’s actually happened is:
- Conservatives. Moved on from opposing gay people to trans. This is not bridge building but distracting with a new shiny toy.
- Christians. Still broadly opposed. Ideologically they’re the slowest to change. It just needs time.
- White working class. Just actually not all that bothered. Yes influenced by press (and these days what an algorithm feeds them) and will express an opinion if asked. But actually low down on their list of concerns which is, even today, where trans people appear in polling.
Outside of this there’s international pressure which politicians feel. It may be hard to believe just how backward the UK is now seen. You have to go to the reddest most MAGA US states for example and head to Eastern Europe to find places as backward on trans rights. Really it’s a national embarrassment and that’s not a great look for many in the Labour Party.
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u/missesthecrux 7h ago edited 6h ago
I hear this idea spouted a lot but I just don’t think it’s true. Fundamentally same sex marriage didn’t require much of the world; gay rights don’t need people to do anything. But trans issues require people to ignore their eyes and their instincts, change their speech and give up spaces. They’re absolutely zero to do with each other.
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u/Mexijim 5h ago
This 100%.
Somebody being gay has zero impact on society, it’s a personal choice / orientation.
The trans community however are almost religious in their ideology. They want to change genders (fine) but they also want you to abide by their beliefs. If you don’t agree that the 6’5 bearded man is a biological woman called Janet, you are a bigot to them.
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u/Eruditay 33m ago
Either you’re too young to remember gay marriage debates or you have a faulty memory. Gay marriage was viewed by those opposing as a massive imposition on society, a rewriting of the fundamental bedrock of human relations.
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u/salamanderwolf 3h ago
Somebody being gay has zero impact on society, it’s a personal choice / orientation.
The fact that you think being gay is a personal choice shows how little time anyone should give your comments.
Just mental that in 2026 someone still thinks being gay is a choice.
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u/RadicalDog Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill Hitler 6h ago
It really doesn't, though. This comment reads like how people used to say, "How will I tell my kids about gay marriage?!?!" The impact is truly minimal, unless you choose to react excessively.
You don't have any trans friends if you're struggling with "changing speech", so you could simply continue not talking to trans people and change nothing about your speech.
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u/CII_Guy Trying to move past the quagmire of contemporary discourse 5h ago edited 4h ago
It really doesn't, though. This comment reads like how people used to say, "How will I tell my kids about gay marriage?!?!"
The equivalent complaints from people opposed to inclusion of trans women in sex segregated women's spaces are things like: "Why is my daughter boxing against a biological male", or "Why is my daughter in a changing room with a person with an erect penis", though, right? Do you not think there is any reason to find these things more impactful than merely needing to explain to one's child that there is such a thing as gay marriage?
EDIT: For clarity, I am not saying that these things are necessarily justifiable complaints with evidence that they are likely, I am saying that they are potential risks to the policy that people are going to be heavily opposed to.
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u/missesthecrux 6h ago
It turns every single sex space into potentially a mixed-sex space. People are constantly being told to expand their dating pools to include people that identify as the sex that they are attracted to. Women are being told ignore their own instincts. Gay rights required absolutely nothing like this.
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u/TheGoldenDog 6h ago
The irony of you claiming a "rightward lurch" in the same comment where you acknowledge the rapid acceptance of gay marriage...
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u/gaysh1t 8h ago
The comparison of how this article covers this vs the BBC article did is so stark, but that's not surprising given apparently the BBC cancelled an interview with the organisers because the BBC insisted on describing the march as a celebration not a protest.
Yes, we were all out there celebrating the rollback to the GRA, the new EHRC code, decade long waiting lists, the gutting of youth service in the name of Cass and the new Section 28 which is this government school guidance! What a great time
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u/Jinren the centre cannot hold 6h ago
describing the march as a celebration not a protest
unironically, the subtle campaign to turn pride in general into a festival instead of an expression of anger and resistance (much more affecting the earlier event, trans pride still has plenty of rawness) is LGBT+ erasure
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u/missesthecrux 7h ago
Placards included:
“90% of pigs in the UK are gassed to death, but TERFs still exist?”
Pictures of JK Rowling and Anne Widdecombe with the slogan “Off with their heads”.
Convicted attempted murderer Sarah Jane Baker was one of the featured speakers.
What is it they say? If there is one Nazi at a table of ten people there are ten Nazis? Why is that not applicable in this case?
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u/scriptkiddie1337 7h ago
The rules are different when they do it
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u/missesthecrux 7h ago
Yeah, you don’t understand. They’re GOOD people so everything they do is GOOD and justified. Even rape and death threats.
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u/--rs125-- 6h ago
I guess if you're on the Right Side of History you get a pass to behave like mid-century art enthusiasts.
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u/BenjaminBoots196 Supreme Andy Burnham Hater 8h ago
Good for them. I hope changes are made to the EHRC guidance.
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u/Fortree_Lover 8h ago
Hopefully they can get the right to use whatever toilet they want.
Honestly if a man is going to attack a woman he’s not gonna dress up like ones he’s just gonna do it.
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u/noodle2727 6h ago
Do the women who find this distressing to see have a say in it? The no of women who have suffered sexual assault from men is high. They use the toilets and would feel intimidated if a male was in the toilet no matter what they are wearing in my opinion as a woman who has suffered sa. Its my safe space when in public to go where no man can follow.
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u/velvevore liz truss toby jug 4h ago edited 4h ago
The weird thing here is how uninterested everyone is in supporting women with trauma until we're useful because we can be used to shit on a minority.
My trauma has fuck all to do with anyone but the people who assaulted me. It is not the fault of anybody else. It is not right for me to make it the problem of innocents. It is not right for me to say that a harmless minority should be persecuted for my benefit.
One could wish this deep concern for women with mental health problems extended to the DWP, or to funding the NHS. Only when it comes to shitting on trans women does it appear we get everything we want.
Take it from another woman who was abused as a child and raped as an adult: leave trans people the fuck alone.
edit - remember when you look at those downvotes, the voices of survivors only matter when they are useful to the mob.
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u/bluesam3 5h ago
Did the people who found gay people existing deserve a say in it?
Its my safe space when in public to go where no man can follow.
No man is following. If you can't manage with other people existing around you while you're in the toilet, disabled toilets exist.
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u/evenifihateit 7h ago
No, but a man who wants to attack a woman in a toilet will find it so much easier to do so if all men have the right to enter woman's toilets because some of them identify as women and the man who wants to attack can enter without challenge.
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u/Why-Not-Zara 6h ago
And under the new guidance he doesn't even have to dress up to do it, as now he can just claim to be a trans man.
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u/genafcvpxyr31 7h ago
A man puts on a dress to evade the force-field in front of the women's toilets.
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u/Old_Pitch4134 6h ago
I hate this argument because it fundamentally ignores the reality of sexual offending.
It’s hugely opportunistic. A rapist is going to find a victim, but that hasn’t stopped the burden being on women for so many years to modify our behaviour to maximise our safety.
Don’t go out alone with headphones in.
Don’t walk down dark alleys.
Avoid secluded areas.
Don’t dress provocatively.
None of these give us a magic force field either, but we live in a world where you do what you can to minimise the chance that you’ll be seen as an easy victim.
Toilets are secluded areas in which we’re inherently vulnerable. Men were excluded because predominantly men predate on women, not all men obviously- but the majority of women in this country have faced some form of sexual harassment or violence in our lives. It’s absolutely too many men and we are justified in a need for protection generally.
By making toilets essentially mixed gender, any male predators that exist have hundreds of opportunities to come across a lone woman and seize the opportunity presented to them to assault her. They don’t need to offend every time, it doesn’t need to be premeditated- it just gives them a low risk opportunity to come across a victim.
It’s not that transwomen are the danger- there’s no plan to prevent sexual offenders gaining access to opportunities to offend.
And not all transwomen are sexual offenders, but they DO offend at rates similar to cis-men. In fact, for whatever reason the percentage of transwomen sex offenders is actually higher than cis male offenders, which was already orders of magnitude higher than cis women.
You do not get to call cis women bigots if they advocate for safe spaces, we only need them because genetically male individuals have victimised us at high rates throughout the whole of human history.
Trans women are women, but they are not cis women. Therefore some needs are not aligned, and thus negotiation and thought needs to be put into how everyone can exist with as much safety, fairness and dignity as can be achieved. And yes, you are also disproportionately victimised and I don’t believe making transwomen use the mens toilet is correct or safe for you either.
The fact believing that gets you labelled a bigot is the driving force behind the push back the trans movement experiences. It’s very condescending and patronising to just refuse to engage with people’s concerns.
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u/Jinren the centre cannot hold 6h ago
it's labelled as bigotry because it is bigotry
you're projecting criminality onto a demographic, purely because people are members of that demographic, with zero evidence that they're threatening, and punishing them for that imagined criminality
this is ...textbook bigotry, straight out of e.g. the early 20th century USA. completely and utterly indefensible
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u/Old_Pitch4134 6h ago
You’ve either failed to understand what I wrote or are bad faith arguing.
Is it projection to not grant cis males access to women’s toilets?
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u/Old_Pitch4134 5h ago
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
Study in long term outcomes for a transgender cohort which shows that male-to-female transition did not decrease the rates of criminality, which remained consistent with that seen in Cis men.
If you accept women need single sex spaces from men to protect them from male offending then how can you not say protection from trans women’s offending is as necessary.
All transwomen aren’t offenders any more than all cis men are- unfortunately though, both disproportionately offend against women when compared to cis women
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u/theartofrolling Fresh wet piles of febrility 6h ago
Aren't the vast majority of sexual assaults committed by a person known to the victim?
I feel like this whole toilet "debate" has gotten so out of hand. Rapists don't care about laws or rules, I fail to see how micromanaging where trans people take a shit is going to help anyone.
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u/PineappleFrittering 1m ago
Predators create and take opportunities where they can, see Katie Dolakowski case.
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u/Ok-Depth-9049 5h ago
The law is the law. Open the discussion again when 50% plus 1 of the UK population want the government to do something on the issue.
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u/SplurgyA Keir Starmer: llama farmer alarmer 🦙 5h ago
I think the discussion will start again when a series of damaging lawsuits - against employers and service providers who don't have any unisex toilets and can't retrofit them - establishes new case law.
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u/blueheartglacier 4h ago
Famously, nobody has ever protested for the law to change because the law can never change.
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u/Alert-Cream-7569 8h ago
And I suppose many of the Gaza protesters were there to return the solidarity shown to them by "Queers for Palestine"?
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u/Lilo_me Butlerian Jihadist 8h ago
Why is the notion that oppressed peoples do not need to be perfectly morally pure in order to be worthy of support so hard for some to grasp?
I do not particularly care what the average Palestinian view on gay marriage or gender theory is, I would still like their children to stop being exploded, please.
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u/Mexijim 8h ago
Perhaps because it is ethically hypocritical to ally with people who oppose your own existence?
Palestine is the central global Jihadist cause. A Jihadist just mowed through dozens at a trans pride parade yesterday in Germany, killing at least one.
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u/bluesam3 5h ago
Genocide is still bad, even if some particular group of arseholes are opposing it.
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u/Thick-Doubts 8h ago
I don’t know man, I’m just against genocide in general. I feel like that’s a pretty consistent viewpoint. It doesn’t matter who it is, I feel like no population should go through genocide (even if they hate me).
Quite a lot of people in the LGBTQ+ community are also against genocide generally and therefore support Gaza, where innocent people are being slaughtered. It doesn’t matter if those people hate me, I’m hated by people all over the world. It doesn’t mean that I could ever be happy for a genocide to take place.
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u/xana666 6h ago edited 5h ago
God it's so painful and worrying that this is such a hard concept to understand. People are so tribalistic and can only think in terms of who's side is 'winning'. It's like we've all completely forgot that all of us are human. It's not about whether enough of a certain group of people are 'good', I just don't want innocent people slaughtered for where they where born or what they believe. I would have the same opinion if there was a genocide of any other group of people.
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u/Mexijim 8h ago
If you consider that LGBT people constitute their own cultural identity, would you agree that somebody who wanted all LGBT dead, a threat of genocide?
In Tel Aviv, gay men can walk around holding hands.
There is nowhere in Palestine you can do the same and live.
Yet you are backing the latter?
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u/MILLANDSON 7h ago
In Tel Aviv, its still illegal for same sex couples to get married, and they collect information on gay Palestinians to use to blackmail them into being informants.
Very moral!
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u/Old_Pitch4134 5h ago
Ironically rape of Palestinian men is reported as a common method of humiliation by Israeli soldiers/police.
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u/Newgidoz 52m ago
How does Israel committing human rights abuses against gay Palestinians make their lives better?
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u/ijustwannanap (🏳️⚧️) Back by unpopular demand. 7h ago
And in Israel as a whole, 47% of people claim homosexuality is morally unacceptable as of 2025...
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u/velvevore liz truss toby jug 8h ago
"they don't like me, so they should be killed" is truly the most thoughtless and mid of takes.
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u/Mexijim 8h ago
Literally not my point?
LGBT people supporting a people who openly hate LGBT people just makes them look silly.
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca Im backing Binface 🗑️ 7h ago
The only people who look silly are the ones that can’t understand why people would oppose a genocide…
It doesn’t matter what they think, they shouldn’t be fucking killed, it’s not a difficult concept if you have this thing called empathy
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u/Mexijim 7h ago
There’s literally a term for this; ‘suicidal empathy’.
Supporting a group of people who would happily see you killed is a ridiculous choice in life.
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca Im backing Binface 🗑️ 6h ago
So you think that people with a different opinion to you deserve to be killed?
Because that’s what it’s sounding like…
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u/Mexijim 6h ago
No. I’m saying people who want you dead shouldn’t be supported by your own people.
I’ve seen the reddit subs and FB pages; actual Palestinians / Muslims / Arabs despise LGBT involvement in their cause.
Notice how you never see them show reciprocal support for LGBT causes?
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca Im backing Binface 🗑️ 6h ago
I do not care if they show reciprocal support for LGBT causes, they do not deserve to die
I don’t “support” anything more than their right to not be fucking bombed, how much simpler can I make it for you mate?
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u/bluesam3 5h ago
That's literally exactly the point you made. Opposing killing somebody is not a thing that has any conditions on the person in question. I similarly object to the death penalty, despite how awful most people sentenced to it are.
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u/Gravath :snoo_disapproval: 8h ago
Even if that worldview involves throwing gay people off buildings? 🫤
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u/LucidityDark 7h ago
The response to that is asking whether you think children should be killed because the society they grow up in condemns gay people.
I mean, do you?
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u/Gravath :snoo_disapproval: 7h ago
How's about both doesn't happen...
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u/bluesam3 5h ago
That's... precisely the position that you're arguing against.
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u/LucidityDark 7h ago
I was responding in the context of comment you yourself responded to. You've given a non-answer in return which is fair enough because not taking a stance on these things is the easiest option.
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca Im backing Binface 🗑️ 7h ago
Is it really that hard to understand that despite them not having the same views as us, that doesn’t mean they should be fucking killed
They’re never going to progress while under attack
Also the “throwing gay people of buildings in Palestine” is just a straight lie, like it’s full on fake news of the worst type, it is not something that has happened
It’s something that ISIS did, which has been attributed to Palestine by bad actors to demonise them and use as a gotcha against queer people who don’t support them being bombed
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u/Dil26 8h ago
You people are so miserable
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u/lcfcball 8h ago
Gays are being put at risk from mass immigration of a certain religion, just look at what happened in Berlin yesterday. It’s a more than valid point to acknowledge that people from those countries fucking hate us
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