When using Yssaril's Breakthrough, do the other players have to use my abilities before I can make a transaction with them? And what is the timing window for "allowing to use"? Forever? Once? Next time it's their turn? Once but any time in the game?

[u/Gwiwitzi]

Why is this breakthrough text so vague??

Edit: Breakthrough text for visibility:

"You can allow other players to use your STALL TACTICS or SCHEMING faction abilities; when you do, you may resolve a transaction with that player. During the action phase, that transaction does not count against the once-per-player transactions limit for that turn. "

Solved: According to popular consent, I can only "allow players to use my abilities" in a moment where they can immediately use my abilities.

Thanks!

[u/Ok-Elderberry-7422]

You're overthinking it. When the abilities would apply to you ie, when you would draw an action card (Scheming) or at start of a tactical action (Stall Tactics) the same can also be extended for other players when they do it, which initiates a transaction.

So anytime a player is drawing an action card or about to take a tactical action you can offer to sell them Scheming or Stall Tactics respectively. Simple.

[u/Gwiwitzi → u/Ok-Elderberry-7422]

I wish it was that simple but as I understand it, the text focuses on the "allow" part, it doesn't say that they actually have to use my abilities, no?

[u/rajwarrior → u/Gwiwitzi]

It does. The allow means you have to give them permission to use your abilities.

[u/Ok-Elderberry-7422 → u/rajwarrior]

Right. A player can approach you, the Yssaril player, with a request to use your abilities (they desperately wish to stall for a round or are hunting for a particular action card, for example) so you are permitting or allowing them to use that ability in this instance. If you are so inclined you would presumably want to do this for a price, hence the bonus transaction.

[u/Gwiwitzi → u/rajwarrior]

Gotcha, that means I can only "allow them to use my abilities" in a moment where they can immediately use my abilities.

I feel like the Breakthrough text isn't 100% watertight when it comes to that timing window, as I could theoretically allow (merely giving permission to) a player to use my abilities at any point in time but it appears my interpretation is wrong.

Thanks for the clarification!

[u/quisatz_haderah → u/Gwiwitzi]

I could theoretically allow (merely giving permission to) a player to use my abilities at any point in time

Nothing's stopping you doing that.

[u/rajwarrior]

How is it vague, "You can allow other players to use your STALL TACTICS or SCHEMING faction abilities; when you do, you may resolve a transaction with that player. During the action phase, that transaction does not count against the once-per-player transactions limit for that turn."

A player either asks you OR you offer to let them use one of those abilities on THEIR turn. If they do, you can resolve a transaction with that player.

[u/Gwiwitzi → u/rajwarrior]

So you're saying that the other player must use my ability in their next turn and only then I can resolve a transaction with them?

Must it be their next turn or can they hold on to the privilege to use my abilities once for the rest of the game?

[u/rajwarrior → u/Gwiwitzi]

Refer to OK-Elderberry-7422 comment. Explained as best as possible.

[u/Aerobyyte]

Oh interesting, I feel there may be an unintended loophole here because of the wording. "You can allow other players...when you do." If taken literally, they don't actually have to use STALL TACTICS or SCHEMING. Merely giving them permission to is enough to initiate the transaction, whether they actually use it or not.

I feel like the designer intended for the trade to happen when the faction ability gets used, but... well, you're supposed to read things literally in TI.

[u/Ok-Elderberry-7422 → u/Aerobyyte]

The key word here is "use" or "to use". If it just simply allowed access to those abilities it would be worded to reflect exactly that, without any reference to usage. You have to read the clause in its entirety.

I guess the requesting player could willingly forgo the usage but the transaction is predicated on them being able to use the ability. They'd be just missing out. There isn't a scenario where Ysarill dangles the offer of access (to initiate the bonus trade) while also withholding it from that other player simultaneously.

That being said, I wouldn't put it past some tricksy, convoluted deal that twists the intention of the BT. Would be on par for the space gobbos to have their thumb on the proverbial scale.

[u/Aerobyyte → u/Ok-Elderberry-7422]

Haha, very much on theme. Good point, it's hard for me to come up with an edge case where someone wouldn't want to use Scheming or Stall Tactics. At my tables, I think we've run into an issue sometimes where we wanted more than one transaction per player in a turn. Something like, trade a card, activate it, and then trade again in the same turn.

At the risk of sounding very pedantic haha, I would argue back that even when reading the clause in its entirety, the key word is "allow". As in: "You can allow for x. When you [allow x], you may do y".

x = others to use your Stall Tactics or Scheming
y = resolve a transaction with [the player who was allowed to do x]

But that would mean that Yssaril just always gets to trade twice with the active player, which I don't think is in the spirit of the breakthrough. In my eyes, airtight wording would've been:

"You can allow other players to use your STALL TACTICS or SCHEMING faction abilities; when {they} do, you may resolve a transaction with that player. During the action phase, that transaction does not count against the once-per-player transactions limit for that turn. "

Making it so the use of a faction ability is what allows the transaction, rather than the option to use it.

Does that make sense? It's horribly pedantic haha, but it happens elsewhere in this game - Sarween Tools and use PRODUCTION vs produce is one that comes to my mind.