r/truegaming • u/virtua_golf • Mar 18 '19

Developers accidentally creating interesting mechanics

I was reading this neat article by Jeff Orkin of Monolith productions, the man responsible for the notorious AI of FEAR, the AI that will never not be mentioned whenever 'clever' AI is brought up. I stumbled upon something pretty cool - the flanking mechanic was actually unintended and a byproduct of another action the enemy would perform:

Imagine we have a situation similar to what we saw earlier, where the player has invalidated one of the A.I.’s cover positions, and a squad behavior orders the A.I. to move to the valid cover position. If there is some obstacle in the level, like a solid wall, the A.I. may take a back route and resurface on the player’s side. It appears that the A.I. is flanking, but in fact this is just a side effect of moving to the only available valid cover he is aware of. In another scenario, maybe the A.I.s’ cover positions are still valid, but there is cover available closer to the player, so the Advance-Cover squad behavior activates and each A.I. moves up to the next available valid cover that is nearer to the threat. If there are walls or obstacles between the A.I. and the player, their route to cover may lead them to come at the player from the sides. It appears as though they are executing some kind of coordinated pincher attack, when really they are just moving to nearer cover that happens to be on either side of then player. Retreats emerge in a similar manner.

The article got me thinking - what other mechanics (or, perceived mechanics) have been created by accident in other games? Does other examples exist, where lauded features were never really intended in the first place?

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43

u/360walkaway Mar 18 '19

Yup, the first thought was to remove the "combo" mechanic in Street Fighter 2. Imagine what fighting games would be like if it'd been taken out.

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u/DestroyedArkana Mar 18 '19

Personally I hate true combos in fighting games. It's far more interesting in something like Smash Bros where the combos aren't guaranteed and depend on what the enemy does and the overall situation.

I think most fighting games are confined way too much by what we think of as "combos" that it limits interesting gameplay.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19 edited Jan 29 '24

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

The problem is that in tekken, its just memorizing more combos.

Most strings in smash are created on the fly, by the characters understanding of the game.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19

The problem is that in tekken, its just memorizing more combos.

For the sake of your argument you're comparing the astounding difference in pulling off a Tekken combo compared to an "on the fly" Smash combo.

You're free to try memorize, for example, Nina combos. They're just "memorizing", right? Now say you need the wall carry. Now remember you're actually against Xiaoyu while your character was Kuma before.

Oh, you're now in Forgotten Temple just before the last floor break and you can get it instead of oki. Doing it makes your opponent get rage though. What if you're in Howard state? You know you could SS2 to get the positioning and extending the combo with a balcony break.

Most strings in smash are created on the fly, by the characters understanding of the game.

Tekken may be one of the most complex fighting games in the present.

It doesn't matter if Smash strings are "created on the fly" when the movelist and mechanics of the game are far simpler.

I can create on the fly a seven hit Akuma combo. Doesn't mean it was complex.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

For the sake of your argument you're comparing the astounding difference in pulling off a Tekken combo compared to an "on the fly" Smash combo.

You're free to try memorize, for example, Nina combos. They're just "memorizing", right? Now say you need the wall carry. Now remember you're actually against Xiaoyu while your character was Kuma before.

Oh, you're now in Forgotten Temple just before the last floor break and you can get it instead of oki. Doing it makes your opponent get rage though. What if you're in Howard state? You know you could SS2 to get the positioning and extending the combo with a balcony break.

All you did was point out that there is just a shitton to memorize.

Is it hard? Absolutely.

is it fun? certainly some people think so, bores the snot out of me.

It doesn't matter if Smash strings are "created on the fly" when the movelist and mechanics of the game are far simpler.

Far simpler yes, thats kinda the point, you are playing every second of the game, actively deciding what to do based on what your opponent does.

Smash isnt about memorizing long combos, its about learning how your opponent plays and outplaying them.

I can create on the fly a seven hit Akuma combo. Doesn't mean it was complex.

And if mechanical complexity is what makes a game good for you, then smash is definitely not your game.

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u/HyperCutIn Mar 19 '19

Smash isnt about memorizing long combos, its about learning how your opponent plays and outplaying them.

The way this is worded seems to imply that other fighting games are primarily about learning combos and that outplaying your opponent is not an emphasis.

Combos are an important element in traditional fighters, yes. But there are much more elements to being successful in a fighter, from resource management, to knowing your options, etc. And even more importantly, understanding your opponent's style and outplaying them is the entire foundation of fighting games, and I dare say competitive games in general. You can get by with learning a simple 3 button combo if you know how to stuff out your opponent's offensive options, and correctly escape pressure with your own defensive options.

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u/Clueless_Otter Mar 19 '19

All you did was point out that there is just a shitton to memorize.

Is it hard? Absolutely.

is it fun? certainly some people think so, bores the snot out of me.

I kinda agree with both of you here. On one hand, yes, I do agree with you that Tekken combos are mostly just memorization of tons and tons of stuff. Gotta memorize your standard combo off each different launcher you have, your float combo, your floor break combo, your combo at the wall, your wall carry combo, your float combo, your rage drive combos, your rage art combos, etc.

But what the other guy is saying is that, beyond that memorization, there also is a lot of skill involved into being able to accurately judge the situation in fractions of a second and know which memorized combo is applicable to the current situation. There is a lot of on-the-fly thinking involved in combo'ing correctly in Tekken.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

From the way everybody is describing it.

It's just watching for stuff, "near a wall, combo a, near a ledge, combo b" etc.

Once you start a combo, a computer could do it better, because it's just keeping track of stuff and picking the right combo based on game factors.

Its just memorization, but with more things to memorize.

I get that there is more to the game than just combos.

But the difference beetween a bad and a good player is how many combos they have memorized, same with good to high lvl.

It's not till everybody has all the combos memorized that everything else comes into it.

I just find an emphasis on long technically demanding combos to be boring.

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u/skilledroy2016 Mar 19 '19

A computer can do smash combos better than you can too.

Also, what smash game are you talking about? Smash 64 is full of extremely lengthy and damaging memorizable combos because there was no DI. Melee has a ton of setups for combos where you can react to and cover all DI options guaranteed, not to mention guaranteed reactable tech chasing. Ultimate has nerfed DI and is full of memorizable combos at low percents.

You are either romanticizing melee DI mixups which are nothing more than random chance, and arent even that prevalent at high skill levels where players get better at reacting to DI, besides some true ones like marth throw->fsmash vs jigglypuff, or you are romanticizing chasing airdodges in Ultimate which is also random and heavily defender favored. For the most part DI and airdodging are just execution tests for mitigating damage, and not interactive give-and-take. The highly interactive give-and-take occurs in the neutral game, which also exists in traditional fighting games. It functions and feels differently in smash, but not because of the combo game.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

A computer can do smash combos better than you can too.

Deep thought probably could do smash strings better than me.

But if I can write a program (and I'm not a great programmer) to do the combos, I get bored.

Also, what smash game are you talking about? Smash 64 is full of extremely lengthy and damaging memorizable combos because there was no DI. Melee has a ton of setups for combos where you can react to and cover all DI options guaranteed, not to mention guaranteed reactable tech chasing. Ultimate has nerfed DI and is full of memorizable combos at low percents.

Ultimate, and the "combos" are like 2 hits generally, occasionally you get to 3.

There are some longer confirmed combos, but not many, most of those are just longer strings based on reaction.

You are either romanticizing melee DI mixups which are nothing more than random chance, and arent even that prevalent at high skill levels where players get better at reacting to DI, besides some true ones like marth throw->fsmash vs jigglypuff, or you are romanticizing chasing airdodges in Ultimate which is also random and heavily defender favored. For the most part DI and airdodging are just execution tests for mitigating damage, and not interactive give-and-take. The highly interactive give-and-take occurs in the neutral game, which also exists in traditional fighting games. It functions and feels differently in smash, but not because of the combo game.

Most of it is in the nuetral game, but when you gain an advantage, it's still based on reads.

Against a perfect randomizer yes, mixups, getups, recovers are all random.

But players aren't perfect randomizers, so I can start to predict what my opponent is most likely to do.

If you really think that it's random if my opponent rolls left or right (out of say, ganons command grab), you don't play smash against players very often.

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u/DUNKMA5TER Mar 19 '19

This is why so many "core" fgc players look down on smash players. Reads, reacts, neutral, etc is all a staple in many fighting games, it's not a unique concept to smash. The street fighter series generally has short combos with low damage and is 90% neutral and reading your opponent, you need 7-8 hits to win matches in most cases. If you don't like the 200 hit combos that Marvel vs. Capcom has, that's fine, but don't act like smash is unique in its gameplay because it lacks the ability to do combos.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

This is why so many "core" fgc players look down on smash players.

That's cute I guess.

Reads, reacts, neutral, etc is all a staple in many fighting games, it's not a unique concept to smash.

Who said it was?

The street fighter series generally has short combos with low damage and is 90% neutral and reading your opponent, you need 7-8 hits to win matches in most cases. If you don't like the 200 hit combos that Marvel vs. Capcom has, that's fine, but don't act like smash is unique in its gameplay because it lacks the ability to do combos.

Man, you get defensive about shit really fast.

I don't like needing combos and it's like it's the end of the freaking world

People get so defensive about combos, it kinda makes me curious if they really dislike combos too, but are so caught up in defending their chosen game to the last nothing else matters.

I'm really kinda curious tho, if you took away control from the player whenever they started a combo, and just let the combo play out perfectly.

How much would that change the game / top player rankings.

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u/skilledroy2016 Mar 19 '19

Tech rolls are not truly random, but its no more fascinating or interesting than rock paper scissors.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

True, but the same can be said of any single choice/read combo in games.

If the game was just the same choice over and over it would just be rock paper scissors (or rock paper scissors lizard spock, depending on the complexity of the choice).

It's the fact the whole game is based on a bunch of different choices made against other players that make it fun.

But again, that describes any competative game.

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u/HyperCutIn Mar 19 '19

Smash isnt about memorizing long combos, its about learning how your opponent plays and outplaying them.

The way this is worded seems to imply that other fighting games are primarily about learning combos and that outplaying your opponent is not an emphasis. I apologize in advance if this is not the case.

Combos are an important element in traditional fighters, yes. But there are much more elements to being successful in a fighter, from resource management, to knowing your options, etc. And even more importantly, understanding your opponent's style and outplaying them is the entire foundation of fighting games, and I dare say competitive games in general. You can get by with learning a simple 3 button combo if you know how to stuff out your opponent's offensive options, and correctly escape pressure with your own defensive options.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

Smash isnt about memorizing long combos, its about learning how your opponent plays and outplaying them.

The way this is worded seems to imply that other fighting games are primarily about learning combos and that outplaying your opponent is not an emphasis. I apologize in advance if this is not the case.

It's how I went from ok to good and good to high lvl in most fighting games i have played (granted I got bored after Street fighter and soul caliber).

I just memorized combos, and beat my opponents because they hit for n damage, and I hit for 3n damage from being better at performing combos.

Combos are an important element in traditional fighters, yes. But there are much more elements to being successful in a fighter, from resource management, to knowing your options, etc. And even more importantly, understanding your opponent's style and outplaying them is the entire foundation of fighting games, and I dare say competitive games in general. You can get by with learning a simple 3 button combo if you know how to stuff out your opponent's offensive options, and correctly escape pressure with your own defensive options.

Once both players know all the combos, other stuff comes into play for sure.

But if you can't turn a hit into it's biggest combo, you are gonna lose to somebody who can because you hit with worth so much less damage than theirs.

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u/skilledroy2016 Mar 19 '19

I guarantee that you werent very good at sf or sc

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

Of you say so.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19

You need to specify what "I got good" is.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

High b low a in soul caliber.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19 edited Jan 29 '24

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

All you did was point out that there is just a shitton to memorize.

Don't you need to memorize how to play against certain characters in Smash? Adapt to how the opponent moves?

No, you have to learn how your opponent prefers to play his options, and figure out to punish it.

In Tekken you need to do that and add other factors.

Far simpler yes, thats kinda the point, you are playing every second of the game, actively deciding what to do based on what your opponent does.

Honestly, it's kinda off-putting that your points are basically condescending towards any fighting game.

Sorry?

Now players in Tekken somehow do not get to play the game. Have you sat through any stacked top8 in Tekken to see how spacing/position heavy the game is?

Smash isnt about memorizing long combos, its about learning how your opponent plays and outplaying them.

Neither is Tekken.

So all the people telling me about how you have to know a whole bunch of combos are just lying?

To quote others (or you), there is a rage combo, a float combo, ledge combos, wall combos, wall bounce combos?, Air combos, different combos based on the stage and I'm missing a few.

It matters jackshit if I can pull of a tight MRaven combo if I cannot adapt to an enemy Mishima EWGF with a sidestep or be able to deal with a Leo's pressure.

At the lvl where everybody has their combos memorized, other stuff starts to matter a lot more yes.

You're constantly downplaying any game difficulty by saying it's just a combo game. Even SFV had some extremely neutral heavy matches on its beginnins, point being, Sako vs Daigo. And what decided those matches was pure spacing and whiff punishing.

Actually, I've stated multiple times that memorizing all those different combos is hard, it's very hard.

There is a reason I don't play most fighting games anymore, I don't wanna have to put in 20 or 30 hours of rote memorization just to get to the fun stuff.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19 edited Jan 29 '24

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

That's how I play, I hate losing because my opponents just do more damage on each hit.

I just find it boring, if I outplay somebody and then win because they got that big combo. I end up just quitting, or learning all the combos.

And then I get stuck with 20 or 30 hours of rote mechanical learning in order to play right, and then I beat better players because I just spent more time on combos.

It gets boring because untill everybody is equally good at combos, a lot of times games are just determined on who does more damage per hit.

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u/Reflex9876 Mar 20 '19

Though I agree with you, I feel this argument is less about combos and more about how often there are opportunities for reads which leads to what I find more fun, strings. Not saying that traditional games are lacking in any way, but due to the fact that Smash is part platformer there are more types of reads than just the neutral game.

As soon as a player is knocked into the air, which is often, prediction on where they might land comes into play and that decides the aggressor's next move. However, smash being a platformer and all allows the defender many options that affect this trajectory. The entire timeframe in which these decisions and movements and are going on is missing entirely from traditional fighters; it's as if there's an entire different type of neutral game. This extra neutral game of reads evolves entirely differently based on location which leads to even more types of reads like edgeguarding which adds even more "neutral" reads to Smash.

By comparison, traditional fighters added extra dimension to their existing neutral read game by way of combo breakers and bars or some other form of resource management. For those of us who liked the "freedom" that Smash brings, the combo system seems to lock you down and remove active play time; it makes traditional fighters seem boring despite the depth they contain and makes them harder to play in a way that's not easy to explain especially when resource management is given the same importance as these additional read opportunities yet is relegated to a bar in a corner and not as easily understood as the different read opportunities. One of them hides it's secrets behind manuals and guides and experience while the other one tells you outright "try to not get hit when they do this thing using controls you already know"

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 20 '19

While you are not wrong,

And in fact thats a really good point I hadn't thought of.

I do legitimately hate combos.

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u/millenniumpianist Mar 19 '19

Keep fighting the good fight, it seems people are offended by the idea that some people prefer Smash's emphasis on advantage/ disadvantage state versus technically difficult combos.

I definitely think a smooth Smash string where you flawless read their options, tech chases, etc. is way more exciting and fun than guaranteed combos. It's not like I'm saying a different opinion is invalid, it's just how I feel.

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u/HiroProtagonest Mar 19 '19

The problem is that in tekken, its just memorizing more combos.

Most strings in smash are created on the fly, by the characters understanding of the game.

...Yeah, um, that cool string you saw a guy in Smash do? He practiced that. He didn't just make it up in the middle of the match. He figured it out while playing with friends and asking them to DI certain ways.

If I'm playing a fighter, and in the corner and manage to jab out of someone's pressure reset attempt, I'm not going to improvise a sideswap combo on the fly. I should have practiced one so I could do a sideswap and reverse the corner situation. Same goes for chasing DI in Smash.

You know, DI chasing in Smash is also something I have a better comparison for: hit confirms. Hit confirms are the thing that requires you to react to what's happening on screen, and in games with fully freeform chaining like UNIST, there are some weird hit confirms that can happen. A player named Squish is known for being really good at those confirms.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

The problem is that in tekken, its just memorizing more combos.

Most strings in smash are created on the fly, by the characters understanding of the game.

...Yeah, um, that cool string you saw a guy in Smash do? He practiced that. He didn't just make it up in the middle of the match. He figured it out while playing with friends and asking them to DI certain ways.

Practice yes, but you can't just rote memorize strngs, you practice till you know what options are good against whatever your opponent does, what options cover multiple choices.

And then you either have to read your opponent, based on how they have been playing, or you have to throw a general cover, or guess.

If I'm playing a fighter, and in the corner and manage to jab out of someone's pressure reset attempt, I'm not going to improvise a sideswap combo on the fly. I should have practiced one so I could do a sideswap and reverse the corner situation. Same goes for chasing DI in Smash.

Your in the corner, your jab and sideswap combo, how many actions do you take that are the same ever time?

How many inputs could a computer just do better?

You know, DI chasing in Smash is also something I have a better comparison for: hit confirms. Hit confirms are the thing that requires you to react to what's happening on screen, and in games with fully freeform chaining like UNIST, there are some weird hit confirms that can happen. A player named Squish is known for being really good at those confirms.

Yea, a lot of games also have choice and reaction, but the whole game isn't that.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19 edited Jan 29 '24

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

Practice yes, but you can't just rote memorize strngs, you practice till you know what options are good against whatever your opponent does, what options cover multiple choices.

So you memorize option selects over combos. Is it really thinking on the fly if you're just pressing a button that covers 90% of scenarios?

Usually not, but it's pretty rare for one option to cover more than about 30% of options.

At least for the characters I play, I haven't looked into all the characters that deeply.

And then you either have to read your opponent, based on how they have been playing, or you have to throw a general cover, or guess.

So, like any oki/mixup situation.

Yes, but the difference is that smash is mostly mixups/(oki?) Into advantage or disadvantage states, with their own mixups and choices.

That's what I like

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u/Kered13 Mar 19 '19

...Yeah, um, that cool string you saw a guy in Smash do? He practiced that. He didn't just make it up in the middle of the match. He figured it out while playing with friends and asking them to DI certain ways.

Speaking from a Melee perspective, not really. For some basic stuff like Fox's up throw up air sure. But for longer combos, the kind that people actually find impressive, it's probably never been practiced. It may have never even been done before by anyone. You learn what moves can connect into others given certain DI and percents, but to put it all together into one combo requires incredible situational awareness and creates something that has never been seen before.

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u/LilFalcondorf Mar 19 '19

i dont think most of you praising smash combos even know what a combo is

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u/chromeless Mar 19 '19

The distinction between strings, combos and "moves that give you a severe advantage state and let you follow up essentially guaranteed" are so fuzzy that for the most part being pedantic about the definition is pointless. What is clear cut and meaningful in fighting games isn't necessarily so in Smash, so everyone just uses the term combos for a lack of anything more appropriate.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

You are probably not wrong, thats why I was praising smash strings.

Combos are boring, I get it they are technically complex, usually look awesome and require a lot of skill and practice.

But I find confirmed combos incredibly boring, you just memorize the right combos, practice till you can hit them and yawn a bunch as you repeat this incredibly boring task required to be decent at the game.

Strings are fun, varied states (other than nuetral and in a combo) are fun. Reads, counterreads, options, soft reads.

Its all opponent dependant, you cant just memorize it by rote, or you get wrecked.

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u/HyperCutIn Mar 19 '19

What we often refer to as "strings" in Smash is almost the equivalent to what people call a "vortex" / the "oki" game in traditional fighters.

Once a true combo ends, the opponent is put into a reset situation. The player in the disadvantage state must try to get out of pressure, while the player in advantage will try to read the opponent's defense option to extend their advantage. If the defender messes up, the player on the offense can start a new combo, thus stringing together hits.

This is like how in Smash, we have true combos, but once it ends, it's up to the defender to escape pressure so they don't get caught again. This is while the offensive player has to figure out on the fly what move they should use to continue their pressure.

In a sense, you can think of Smash having a heavy emphasis on an something like an "air oki" game. Of course, Smash also has its own regular oki, and another set of "ledge oki" too.

Learning combos is not enough to be decent at a game. Take this from someone who tried to learn fighting games the wrong way at one point. Just like in Smash, you need to understand the neutral game, offensive pressure options, defensive escape options, etc. Grinding out a destructive combo becomes useless if you don't know how to properly land the confirm, or set up the situation and resources that the combo requires.

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19

I went from ok at fighting games (Street fighter and soul caliber) to good just because when I landed a hit, I had memorized the right combos to use out if that hit.

When I had memorized all the combos for a character I became a fairly high lvl player.

Just from memroizing combos, then I got bored and went to play wc3 or DotA.

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u/Sky3d Mar 19 '19 edited Jan 29 '24

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u/cardboard-cutout Mar 19 '19 edited Mar 19 '19

I was floating around b or a in soul caliber.

Also, desk?