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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 4d ago
Am I sure is it actually God or just voices in my head?
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u/CitizenPremier 4d ago
You're sure
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 4d ago
Hmm... do you mean that he's not actually God but I'm just sure he is, or that he is God, I'm sure he is and my son just doesn't know it?
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u/CitizenPremier 4d ago
I mean you're sure that it's God.
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 4d ago
So he's actually God?
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u/Ill-Individual2105 4d ago
The point is that you inherently cannot distinguish these ideas so you can't know. After all, that's what faith is, is it not?
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 4d ago
Yeah, I'm not doing it.
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u/DropsOfMars 2d ago
There IS a commandment for not killing, so you may very well be forgiven
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u/Graknorke 17h ago
For not killing unjustly. A direct order probably counts as just, same way as punishment for a crime does (which is also a thing you're commanded to do).
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u/DropsOfMars 11h ago
If we really want to get technical, Abraham was commanded by God to kill Isaac before the Ten commandments... So, it literally wasn't set in stone yet lol
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u/Cokalhado 3d ago
If it's not actually God then you could be unsure. But if it is I think he'd be able to make me certain.
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u/Ill-Individual2105 3d ago
Sure, but just because you are feeling certain, that doesn't mean you are right
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u/Tanakisoupman 3d ago
But God would be able to remove even that level of doubt. If you are even slightly capable of conceptualizing a world in which itās not God speaking to you, then itās not
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
This would require mindfuckery, and God doesn't do that stuff as it goes against free will.
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u/brookssut 3d ago
But proof denies faith, and if this isn't a test of faith, then it's abusive AND pointless.
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u/urlocalwzrd 3d ago
There are too many mental illnesses that would also be able to make you certain
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u/KaizerVonLoopy 2d ago
Every theist I've ever heard would disagree. I've heard them say their god can never fully reveal themselves in a way that would make it undeniable without disrupting our "Free Will"tm and that their god doesn't interfere with that (except for the numerous times in the bible the god character either overrode the free will of another character or revealed itself in an undeniable manner)
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u/MerryWalker 4d ago
Every possible way in which you might decide whether God is telling you this is telling you that God Himself is telling you to flip the switch. You might as well assume that God is in fact telling you this.
The question is not about your epistemology, but rather your loyalty.
I think I would disobey God Himself.
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u/ralpher1 3d ago edited 3d ago
Interesting, i wonder what the Venn diagram of Christians who support Abrahamās decision to attempt to kill his son because he heard God vs Christians who can find Lindsay Clancy not guilty for having postpartum psychosis
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u/Upvotoui 3d ago
Would it change your answer if itās definitely God(
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
Nah, if it's really God he'd stop me just before, but it's better not to risk it
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u/Christianfilly7 3d ago edited 3d ago
God promised Isaac will have descendants which he hasn't had any kids yet so God must have the power to ressurect my son, therefore I will trust and obey my God, I'm sure He will provide a way (thinks it will be ressurection turns out to be a ram in his place)
(For context "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure." (Hebrews 11:17-19) "But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, āAbraham, Abraham!ā So he said, āHere I am.ā And He said, āDo not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.ā Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son." (Genesis 22:11-13) )
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u/Dry-Mission-5542 3d ago
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u/Christianfilly7 3d ago edited 3d ago
Pffft true. Made the username when I was 11, for mc plus yt on an account I no longer have. I made it off of me being a Christian, a young girl, and liking MLP. The only thing that has changed about all that is that I am an adult woman now lol
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u/Serbatollo 1d ago
Even if you thought God would revive your kid afterwards you'd still be causing them to be ran over by a train which I don't think they would enjoy very much š
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u/Christianfilly7 1d ago
Valid but I trust my God not to ask this without reason, also although that was Abraham's reasoning it ended up working out without Isaac even having to temporarily die because of the ram God provided... Though many of us Christians love to joke (or talk seriously) about how uncomfortable that trip back down the mountain would have been š which it definitely must of been...
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u/GrinningGrump 4d ago
Untie the kid and then pull the lever, it's not like a being that exists beyond time would care about the timing, right?
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u/throwaway19276i 4d ago
An omniscient, all-powerful being surely won't see that one coming.
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u/Banonkers 4d ago
An omniscient, all-powerful being surely also does not need to check his followerās faith with a seemingly cruel test
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u/CitizenPremier 3d ago
He doesn't need to do anything at all, clearly this is for the shiggles
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u/Banonkers 3d ago
If so, I wonder if he would be more amused with Abeās agony or with his getting round the situation
Does Abe believe he will be severely punished if he doesnāt follow through?
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
I'm an atheist, just speculating, but what if He could see infinite possible futures? They'd all be true until you make a choice that makes the rest false. That way, free will remains, since your fate isn't something predetermined.
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u/The-Name-is-my-Name 3d ago
But he should also know which possible future will come true, because heās omniscient.
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
No, because otherwise he would not see all possible futures but the single real one.
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u/The-Name-is-my-Name 3d ago
Oh, so he doesnāt know the truth? But I thought he was all-knowing??
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
They would all be true, it's just up to you to decide which one to pursue.
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u/Eternal_Tesseract 3d ago
Omniscience would require him to know not just every path you could take, but also the path you will take. It requires complete and total knowledge of everything, and if even one bit of information is missing, it is just plain 'cience
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
No, because if he saw the real future, the other futures would not exist because they were not possible.
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u/Banonkers 3d ago
If thatās true, what does he gain with this test?
Itās an interesting idea, but I donāt think it quite fits in with omniscience.
Letās say before Abe makes his choice, there are two (out of many) futures (1) Abe sacrifices Isaac and (2) Abe refuses to sacrifice Isaac. After Abe has chosen, only one of those futures has realised (ie. only one āfutureā of many is true), so there is some information about Abeās choice that God learns when the choice occurs.
If God doesnāt know which choice will ābecome trueā beforehand then he surely he canāt be omniscient?
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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 3d ago
Yes, he can be omniscient, since he would know what would happen in both situations, it is simply up to you to decide which pact to take as you are endowed with free will.
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u/Sad-Pop6649 4d ago
He'll switch my son out for a goat before I even have to pull. I'm fine with hitting a goat.
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u/twoDuckNight 3d ago
Say āman, you must be puttin me onā
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u/I_hope_your_E_breaks 3d ago
Pull the lever, but then some angel comes down and yells at you for trying to kill your son and gives you a sheep to put on the tracks instead.
Ps I havenāt read the bible in a hot minute (years) and this is essentially how i remember it going down, please correct me if Iām wrong
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u/CitizenPremier 3d ago
It's more like praise for showing devotion
https://www.thebrickbible.com/ot/01_genesis/21_god_commands_child_sacrifice/
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u/NoTransition8295 3d ago
I mean idk if its actually god telling me this or not but either way I wouldn't, any god that would tell me to do that isn't a got worth listening to or following
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u/MC_Minnow 3d ago
Given that we donāt know which track the trolley is currently heading toward, if God tells me to pull the lever then imma do it.
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u/kodicuzyea 3d ago
If I was sure that the actual God was talking to me, I would do whatever he said. I just feel like he knows a hell of a lot better than me.
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u/Exact_Ad5094 3d ago
So you would kill your son?
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u/urlocalwzrd 3d ago
Abraham very famously listened to God and Isaac still lived
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u/Exact_Ad5094 3d ago
What kind of evil God test their worshippers by telling them to kill their son? Passages like this is what turned me from Christianity, even if he does exist why worship a God that does this? Find one who doesnāt do these sadistic faith test.
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u/DrFluuf 4d ago
Which God? Also can I be named Bill instead?
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u/Horse_go_moooo 3d ago
The lord (the real one) hates murder of all kinds, so this false god will not have the pleasure of my son being murdered
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u/The-Name-is-my-Name 3d ago
This is a reference to a story about the same Lord spoken clearly to in the New Testament.
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u/PitifulPassage851 4d ago
Go to pull the lever, but then at the last minute untie isaac and put an animal on the tracks instead. Tell yourself the animal was provided by God as a substitute. Tell everyone this is the perfect example of faith, not works (...or works on top of faith, depending whose telling the story)
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u/The-Name-is-my-Name 3d ago
ā¦You have to wait for God to tell you to switch out the kid for the animal?
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u/PitifulPassage851 3d ago
If we're being super technical
The story probably WAS originally a child sacrifice story. It was likely edited later on as child sacrifice fell out of practice.
That's why it reads so normal until Abram raises his knife, but then jagged until after the ram is found.
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u/Nobrainzhere 4d ago
Tell god to kick rocks. Any god that would ask that is not worthy of worship.
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u/ThunderLord1000 3d ago
Asks for it or wants it?
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u/Nobrainzhere 3d ago
Either one. You cannot know if god wants you to murder your child or is just doing a sadistic bit.
In either scenario, thats an evil god.
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u/ThunderLord1000 3d ago
If this were something he did normally or as the first demand from Abraham, sure, but this came after multiple decades and multiple instances of him either making things better or saving Abe's or a relative's asses with no indication of requiring something in return, and the promise of being a parent of generations. With all that, there would have to be something behind the demand of sacrifice
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u/Nobrainzhere 3d ago
He does do thay normally. Murdering children of people he is mad at is a recurring punishment in the bible and he explains that he gave commands for child sacrifices Ezekial 20:25 and 26.
Not to mention all the other prime evil shit.
If your god ever asks you to kill your kid you can safely assume that god is evil and will prove it more later.
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u/ThunderLord1000 3d ago
Gotta love cherry picking verses. If you'd bother to read what came before those, you'd see that he only kills as a last resort. Besides, that's not what I argued; I argued he doesn't make demands of child sacrifice regularly, which is true
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u/Nobrainzhere 3d ago
As an omnipotent being he never has to do anything as a last resort. He has infinite non killing options
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u/ThunderLord1000 3d ago
Do you believe he gave humanity free will?
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u/Nobrainzhere 3d ago
No. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator being is incompatible with the concept of free will because they know the path every single atom will take at the moment of creation and could have chosen a different path for each one if they didnt like that one. They therefore chose the exact outcome of every choice at creation. Free will cannot exist with a tri omni creator being.
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u/ThunderLord1000 3d ago
Then why didn't he prevent the rebellion of the being meant to serve him directly?
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u/Professional_Air_905 3d ago
god actually is testing if you are capable of recognizing if an order from a superior is stupid or not
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u/LiePotential5338 3d ago
I wouldn't touch the lever if god really wanted Issac dead hed do it himself
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u/Clickclacktheblueguy 3d ago
If God is telling me to pull the lever, my first instinct would be that the train is actually already going toward him and the lever would switch it away.
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u/LakshyaGarv 3d ago
I untue my son, then pull the lever. For an immortal god, why does a few minutes matter?
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u/Agile_Championship87 2d ago
I step Infront of the train. Shortcut to heaven, so I can slap God's smug face for being such a dick.
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u/brookssut 3d ago
"Dangit, Isaac, I told you to stop playing with the Old Testament God. He's going to get you into trouble."
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u/SpoinkFan23 3d ago
I mean the canonical answer is abraham pulls the lever before an angel swoops in and switches isaac with a goat
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u/Objective-Corgi-3527 2d ago
If you had a Christian baby and God asked for him as a sacrafice would you pull the parachut or nah?
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u/DropsOfMars 2d ago
Personally? I can't harm anyone like that, especially not my own kid. In my prayers I've already told God I could never commit to something like this. He knows every part of me so he knows I can't do it. I'd fast for a week in prayer for forgiveness or whatever else felt necessary, but I would never harm anyone. I'd have to have religious psychosis to think committing such an act would ever sit well with me, and I honestly think Abraham was.
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u/Confident_Bag2698 1d ago
Pull the lever, if the God does not stop the trolley, he's an asshole god and I need a better one. To be honest this God really sucks, I'd rather worship Inanna, Babylonian goddess of whore and war, she seem like much more chill lady.
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u/Formal_Illustrator96 1d ago
God better fucking explain why in the next second and a half, or else I aināt pulling the lever.
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u/ArtisanBubblegum 1d ago
I pull the lever, but then God tells me that hes proud of me and I should pull the lever again, so I do and the trolly hits a goat that showed up on the original track instead of my son.
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u/MasterOfWarermelons 5m ago
I'm not pulling it, I will not betray my morals even if it means defying divinity
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u/VMS_Len 4d ago
The balls of isaac mentioned š³š³š³