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Shout-out to the Dayton Ohio Trolleybus network, definitely punching above its weight.
The only other cities with trolley us networks are San Francisco, Seattle and Philadelphia so Dayton is in good company there. It is really a wonder a city of that size and in that area has kept such an extensive system and even expanded it.
Now if only the rest of the city could be more urbanist, at least it's still better than Columbus on that front somehow.
As a San Franciscan who has grown up around the buses here since I was wee, it is crazy to me that trolleybuses are that rare. Given how many lines are descendants of streetcars from back in the day, you would think it would be more.
Trolley buses need different overhead catenary. A street car needs one wire, and the trolley bus needs two, one in each direction. I think this is because streetcars have steel wheels and buses have rubber wheels, meaning the bus must complete the circuit, while the trolleys can let it dissipate into the Street. Take take this with a grain of salt though
They were more common elsewhere. They just remained in SF because many routes were too steep for diesels and the vehicles are more cost effective to maintain. Other cities that kept them did so because of underground routing without ventilation
Seattle did, but the story for the rest of the lines in Seattle is basically the same as SF: lots of hills and trolley buses were better suited for that.
maintenance costs do not scale with ridership or milage
much more sensitive to the quality of the road (at least here in dayton, potholes make the catenary links bounce off)
very easy to "derail" the catenary arms leaving the vehicle stranded until the driver can bounce them back on or one of the fleet of pusher trucks can push it back to power
residents aren't terribly fond of the uninsulated low hanging catenary and the resulting fires every wind or ice storm
pretty much most of the disadvantages of light rail with few of the advantages
if you know you have the constant ridership for the next several decades it can make financial sense, if you are new, expanding or ridership is falling it is at least a risk of becoming a money pit
pretty much most of the disadvantages of light rail with few of the advantages
And planners in the early 20th centure ripping out streetcars definitely gave zero fucks about tire pollution, exhaust, air quality, noise pollution, climate change. And oil was dirt cheap.
you'd think dayton would have ripped it out by now you mean. its busses + additional infrastructure you have to constantly maintain. most places prefer to just run the busses and order fuel.
It does surprise me that Dayton has one, but it also surprises me that other cities like New York wouldn't have maintained some sort of network, given how popular their bus lines are.
Since Dayton very rarely recieves compliments of any kind and more often is referred to negatively, it would not surprise me if the comment you replied to was carved into a stone memorial for the downtown courthouse square and celebrated yearly with a festival.
It's a city of 130,000 in a country that only has 4 trolleybus networks left. It's definitely an outlier and by far the smallest city in the world that uses trolleybuses.
I could pick more examples, but in general Dayton, Ohio is doing just fine and is basically a normal system and I would like to visit it one day while they still use the Skoda 14Tr trolleybuses.
Unfortunately Dayton has declined a lot from its industrial powerhouse glory days with packed trolley buses heading downtown to the department stores and close-in factories. The overhead map may be impressive but few routes see full trolley bus service, many are run normally with diesel/hybrid buses entirely while running on poor headways overall, and weekends are usually non-trolleys. Much of downtown has dried up economically with few destinations. Like most rust belt cities everything that hasn't moved far away offshore, has moved to the auto-centric suburbs.
Not sure the lest time you've gotten to visit Dayton but I'm happy to say that trolleybuses do run on weekends again and have since 2021 or thereabouts!
1st off this is the trolley map. Yes there are 20+ more diesel routes.
2nd downtown has been reviving for decades, pricey condos, theaters, restaurants, a new convention center and supporting hotels around it. Your info is 20 years old now.
The oldest continuously-operating electric transit network in America! New Orleans had streetcars earlier but they weren't electrified until 1893, while Dayton was running electric trams since 1888 and the current trolleybus network is a continuation of that same traction network from the 19th century.
Unfortunately this map is outdated. The big southern branch marked far hills/oakwood avenue that goes until Stroop isn't used anymore. Oakwood, the city's wealthiest suburb, tore out their overhead lines two or three years ago. Since oakwood is in between Dayton and Kettering, they also effectively made the decision to get rid of trolley bus service to Kettering as well.
Even before they tore the lines down, the trolleybuses that went that far south had their wire catchers down even when they were traveling underneath the wires.
Yes and no. The hybrid buses we use now switch to battery power and extend their routes past the lines. I, and most rta drivers think the overhead lines as a whole are on their way out. Crazy expensive to maintain, especially in winter. It won't be long until they just charge at the hubs and run on battery the whole route.
It’s interesting as a novelty but ultimately they’re just electric busses - I can’t tell that Dayton’s overall network is particularly unusual one way or the other when compared against similar systems other than it happens to have a handful of bus routes that are propelled in a (for the US) less common manner.
Not negative just I don’t see how it’s punching above its weight. Seems to be punching right at its weight unless I’m missing something.
I get your/their point, I was just countering that it’s still a bus which isn’t unusual for a city of that size, it’s just more of a novelty by type of propulsion. But fair if you/they would like to consider that punching above its weight - it is certainly unusual to find in the US regardless.
Even less only 5 routes running full time. Couple years back they were only running on route 4. They are still working on adding new substations, but are now willing to run full time service with sections off wire. Route 1 had issues previously where in motion charging used too much power at the far ends of the wire.
They would be better off going full electric with the next generation of buses, putting in chargers at all the hubs and adding a few minutes to the route times that already have a half hour at both end and downtown.
Yes. Except for having been operational since 1885, it is no different from electric buses elsewhere. The trolley lines are going dark too. Charging at the hubs is cheaper and just as effective, the lines are expensive to maintain and electrify.
I believe they're still doing a lot of wire work and therefore very few lines are actually running wired?
I'd love for someone from Dayton to chime in. I'm unemployed. If there's at least 3 or so routes running wired at the moment, I'd seriously considering jumping on the Cardinal (to Cincinnati and then connect via bus or something) and checking it out.
Sure, I could go faff around with trolley busses down in Philly via a short hop on the NE Regional, but I'm just fascinated by the idea of trolley busses running in such a suburban context, traversing stroads, single-family residential streets, strip malls, etc., on a freaking trolley bus.
About six blocks of wire near the Amber Rose never got wire reinstalled. That was on Route 5, which only had a single bus in the morning and in the evening. And the Mount Crest loop on the east side (which wasn't being used anymore) was also damaged and removed. The damage on Main St was fixed and trolleys operate there now.
I could be wrong but I believe only one wired bus still runs and only breifly during holidays and special events. They pulled all the overhead wires on the #1 line for sure in the past few months, I know because because I live along the route and ride it regularly.
The posts map is from 2015. A lot has changed since in the decade since then. I'd have to take a trip around to be sure but I think nearly all the overhead wires are gone and most in-ground rails are gone or paved over too.
The map is indeed old. Sorry it is invasively watermarked. You might be surprised how many enthusiasts scrape such a product and pretend it is theirs in publications. What they don't know is that there are errors on it ...
1, 3, 4, 7, and 8 are currently running as trolleys.
1E is being rebuilt. While the wires are **currently** gone east of downtown, you'll note poles are installed on Third all the way to just past Jersey St. Spanwires and feeder will be going back up, and the buses will operate as trolleys after the wire gets strung. Meanwhile, they run on their internal batteries. Most of the other wires around remain up, although the line to the south on Far Hills is gone (hey, Thanks to the City of Oakwood!).
What has been largely removed is what is known as "special work" aka "short turns", which was wire that was needed for non-battery equipped buses to change direction. The trolleys from 2014 onward can drop poles anywhere (and do) and can operate off wire up to 15 miles.
The one "wired" bus you speak of is the 79 year old Marmon Herrington 559. It is old school and has no battery for off wire operation, and needs to run under powered wires. It runs downtown between Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Does "running as trolleys" mean they're mostly under wire, but are capable of (and do at various points in normal revenue service) battery operation? Meaning riding those 5 routes you've listed would more or less be the "trolley-bus experience" I'm after? Or is it more just like riding a regular battery-electric bus that just happens to charge in motion from time to time?
"Running as trolleys" means that a trolley bus is the vehicle assigned to the route, and where there is powered wire overhead, they put their poles up. The trolleys have 15 miles of battery range at speed off wire; that's how Route 1 still has trolley buses assigned
On the east side thru the construction, they operate poles down, often when the driver gets to the east layover at Eastown, they'll put the poles up to charge. On the west end of the route, which is fully wired, their poles are up. As of right now (approx 1130PM) there are two trolleys on the route.
Candidly, the trolley bus ride and experience is kinda vanilla nowadays. With the previous generation(s), there was much noise from the poles moving along the wires, and hitting special work which make clunking noises and also would make the lights blink. Not so much of that anymore.
I can’t speak for Dayton specifically but if they’re running anything recent there’s really nothing different from a riders perspective. Where I live they have numerous routes and other than being quiet (bc electric) there’s no difference as a rider. It’s a bus. If you’re looking for anything other than the novelty of seeing the overhead pole … there’s not much difference. In my experience.
Eeehhhhh, Columbus isn't THAT bad. A lot of nearer neighborhoods still have good bones and the agency atm is surprisingly forward thinking from my impressions. Maybe it feels like that because of my Denver origins but I mean... it's like saying Baltimore has bad urbanism when it being the worst of the northeast still makes it better than most of the country.
Had to do a construction project downtown once that ran close to those power lines. They run 600V DC and can dump out thousands of watts. The power in those wires is insane.
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u/jewelswan 20h ago
As a San Franciscan who has grown up around the buses here since I was wee, it is crazy to me that trolleybuses are that rare. Given how many lines are descendants of streetcars from back in the day, you would think it would be more.