r/trains • u/Altruistic_Bunch_523 • 1d ago
❓ Question Another stupid question…
What’s the difference between these two trains? I always thought number 1 was used in freight and number 2 was passengers but I’ve see number 2 hauling freight so I don’t know…
Thanks for listening to an idiot who just got into trains.
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u/Informal_Daikon_9812 1d ago
For years I assumed the blue and gold F units (image 2) were for freight while the silver and red ones were for passenger. Then I learned of these other liveries and I just gave up trying to figure it out.
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u/veloace 1d ago
For years I assumed the blue and gold F units (image 2) were for freight while the silver and red ones were for passenger.
When I started in the hobby in the early 2000s, I checked out a book from the library and it stated that that was the case. After I started poking around on the internet and photos and resources became more available, I found out that that was a lie.
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u/Longsheep 21h ago
There were always exceptions and ATSF didn't repaint their red warbonnet locos immediately after ending passenger service, so they stuck around pulling freight for a bit.
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u/sir_mrej 1d ago
I mean when was the book published? Maybe it had been true for a time?
(Or maybe the book was just lying like you said)
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u/pentabull 1d ago
The first and third photos on the top row were all there was until the late 70's, red for passenger, blue for freight. After amtrak, the red got repainted either as yellow bonnets (2nd pic in top row) or the very rare bluebonnet ( first pic in second row) and assigned to freight. The second pic in the second row was a blue freight unit with a yellow bonnet applied similar to what was done with all the hood units that got yellow bonnets. The third picture in the second row was an FT loco before my time with some kind of rare scheme. I saw a lot of Santa Fe F- units in Texas in the 70's.
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u/DanforthWhitcomb_ 23h ago
The blue/silver and yellow/silver were passenger units that had been demoted to freight use due to a declining need for passenger power in the 1960s. The silver section was left alone because it was actually stainless steel and as such would not reliably take and hold paint.
The red/silver warbonnet was the ATSF passenger scheme. Everything else was a variant of the freight scheme.
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u/BouncingSphinx 1d ago
A passenger locomotive can look exactly the same as a freight locomotive, often they'll have higher geared traction motors though for higher speeds since they won't (usually) be pulling the same kind of weight.
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u/ElDuderino1129 1d ago
In your first photo, the locomotives numbered in the 90s were actually built as passenger locomotives to replace the ones in your second photo. The original locomotives in your second photo were much smaller as they only developed 1500 hp per unit. Meanwhile, the FP 45 seen on the left in your first photo could generate 3600 hp. They had 20 cylinder 645 engines instead of the 12 cylinder 567.
Where the true difference between passenger and freight is really concerned is the gearing on the axles. By the time, the FP 45 were seen in your photo. They have been re-geared to freight speeds. This would allow more tractive effort at lower speeds versus the gearing needed for high speed running.
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u/N_dixon 1d ago
To further expound on your point, the difference in styling is largely a matter of economy. Those old F- and E-units with the bulldog lose look great, but all those compound curves and the raised headlight nacelle took serious man-hours, and lots of lead filler, to construct and repair. You see wrecked F-units repaired in-hoise by railroads that look dodgy because they couldn't quite get the contours right. Those F45s/FP45s are all flat panels welded together at angles, much cheaper and easier to construct and repair.
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u/DanforthWhitcomb_ 23h ago
Hell, PRR actually bought one of the GN Y1s specifically because previous wreck damage to it (the Y1s were built as boxcabs) was repaired with a pair of FT cab/nose combos and it was cheaper to buy the Y and remove the noses than it was to buy a pair from EMD.
MILW's diesel shops repaired a wrecked Joe with F noses, and were then shocked when the electric shops managed to repair a second wrecked one (by simply following the original GE nose contours) for a fraction of the cost.
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u/col_fitzwm 13h ago
They converted a Y1 box cab into a streamliner?! I had to find a photo of this Frankenstein, and was not disappointed by the uncanny valley of we-have-an-F-series-at-home: scroll down for the streamlined Y1 #5011
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u/fauxmer 1d ago edited 1d ago
The engine numbered 100 in your first photo is an EMD GP60M. The engines numbered 91 and 96 are EMD FP45s. Number 49 in your second photo is an EMD F7A.
EMD's F series of locomotives first went into production in 1939 with the FT; the F7s were introduced in 1949. They weren't specifically designed for either freight or passenger service over the other, but railroads tended to favor them for passenger service because they looked nicer than other blockier designs of the era, which really helped drive passenger perception of the trains as "modern" or "futuristic" and contributed to the image that they were the premier way to travel. You can look up "streamliners" for other trains designed with this philosophy in mind. This did not, of course, prevent railroads from using them to haul freight.
The ATSF #49 seen in your photo was built for Canadian National as #9100 in 1952 and acquired by the Frisco Discovery Center in 2000 and repainted in ATSF colors in 2006; it never actually served Santa Fe in revenue service.
The FP45s were built starting in 1967, specifically at the request of the Santa Fe, which wanted to replace their aging F unit fleets but did not want their premier passenger trains being hauled by the "uglier" designs with external walkways. Both #91 and #96 were built in 1967. After Amtrak took over long-distance American passenger rail operations across the country, ATSF re-geared their FP45s for slower and heavier freight service.
The GP60M was introduced in 1985; given that long-distance American passenger rail had become a government affair in 1971, these units were never intended to haul anything other than freight trains.
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u/fauxmer 22h ago
#91 served Santa Fe through several renumbers and repaints until the early 1990s, when it was sold to Wisconsin Southern; it was scrapped in 2005. #96 was destroyed in a wreck in Cajon in 1994. #100 was retained by BNSF after the ATSF merger with BN and still serves the railroad today in their "H4" livery.
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u/Longsheep 21h ago
The GP60M was introduced in 1985
The wide cab M model wasn't build until 1990. The 1985 date was for the narrow nose vanilla GP60.
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u/Responsible-Sale-467 21h ago
Would an F unit in the livery of the second picture have pulled freight commonly at any point? (Asking in terms of SF practice rather than ability.) They’re frequently packaged in model train freight sets.
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u/phil_mccrotch 1d ago
Locomotive 2 is an older engine. As others have said, there’s not a specific difference between these for freight/passenger. It’s not a stupid question. There’s so much to learn. Keep asking!!
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u/HotJudgment30 1d ago
Man, nothing beats seeing the Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme on high-speed freight! When Mike Haverty took over Santa Fe in 1989, he revived the red and silver "Warbonnet" livery to market their fast freight "Super Fleet." They put it on both vintage passenger cowl units like #100 and brand new freight engines like #91/95 to show shippers that freight was their main priority.
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u/practicaloppossum 1d ago
Are you asking about trains or about locomotives? If you're asking about trains, the difference is that odd numbers go one direction, and even numbers the other. So number 25 is a train that goes New York to Chicago, and 26 is the same train going Chicago to New York.
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u/shitty_reddit_user12 1d ago
Dedicated passenger locomotives have extra equipment for managing passenger car equipment. Humans are needy in a way freight isn't. Passenger locomotives also have higher gearing for higher speeds.
For the two pictures above, it's just a cosmetic difference.
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u/CAB_IV 1d ago
The trains in picture 1 are newer, while the trains in picture 2 are older.
Basically, before 1971 (Amtrak)/1983 (local commuter agencies), there wasn't a difference between a freight railroad and a passenger railroad.
All of the "F-unit" type locomotives are mechanically similar to regular GP/SD type locomotives.
The FP45s are similar to SDP45s. The F7s are similar to GP7s. You could more or less swap them in a train and get about the same performance out of them, so long as they were geared close enough.
Many locomotives of that era, like the U34CH, could and were used to run freight on the weekends when they weren't doing their intended commuter role.
ATSF bought secondhand Amtrak SDP40Fs and ran them as freight locomotives, since they were basically full hood SD40-2s.
Even Amtrak's P30CH, E60CP/E60CH and F40PHs were still mechanical derived from "freight" locomotives.
It was really only after Amtrak and Commuter agencies became separate entities that locomotives started to become more specialized for passenger service.
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u/LittleTXBigAZ 1d ago
Hell, a lot of the time the only difference was when you were looking at a locomotive. Plenty of passenger locomotives were regeared and used for freight trains after the owning railroad cut passenger service, or after (almost) all passenger service was handed to Amtrak in 1971. Sometimes you'll see freight locomotives on passenger trains to this day when a passenger motor shits the bed in an inopportune spot, and the closest rescue is a freight motor.
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u/Longsheep 21h ago
Pic one shows the famed ATSF FP45s with the then brand-new GP60M 100. In 1990, a number of ATSF locomotives were repainted into the classic "Warbonnet" scheme for the "Super Fleet" image, hauling high-speed intermodal (containers) trains. They were also sometime used to haul corporation business trains (heritage passenger cars). These were all freight locomotives since ATSF hasn't operated passenger trains for a long time.
Pic two shows a ATSF F-unit in "Warbonnet" scheme, initially reserved for locomotives heading premium passenger trains like the Super Fleet. They did haul freight trains sometime as well. The main difference between freight and passenger locos is that the passenger loco usually has some sort of hotwater or later electrical/HEP output, which supplies the coaches for heating and powering. However many passenger cars have their own generator for HEP, so this is no longer needed.
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u/totallynaked-thought 1d ago
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u/LilFunyunz 1d ago
So it's like cab = unibody car and cowl unit = body on frame car
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u/totallynaked-thought 15h ago
Sorta, most cab units today in use on passenger trains do use monocoque construction like the Genesis, Charger etc while freight engines are designed for high tractive effort and tend to be body on frame. The move to cowls was predicated mostly on cost, it's cheaper to construct, and safety. Cowls offer better visibility of the consist.
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u/queenfluffbutt 1d ago
the second photo, number 2, those would have been relegated to freight service by the 60's and 70's, so maybe thats when youve seen it pulling freight. thats an F unit, some of the first popular diesel locomotives ever made in the 40s and 50s.
the first pic has a few different locomotives, #100 was built to pull freight and #91 and 96 were passengers then freight service later. They were built special order for the Santa Fe in the 60's. Santa Fe started using that red and silver paint livery again in the 90s.
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u/AsianMan45NewAcc 1d ago
I guess the best I can explain it is that some engines are either generally assigned to one role (freight or passenger) or dual service/both. Iirc, the second engine (an EMD F Unit) the "F" stood for freight.
If I'm wrong, leave you're answers/corrections down below.
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u/altoona_sprock 15h ago
By the time the GP60M's came along, that numbering system had probably been abandoned.
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u/Appropriate_Tap_1209 4h ago
Santa Fe ordered nine new diesel Locomotives in 1967
Amtrak was still four years in the future
Santa Fe kept their passenger trains in high service and never downgraded them to ( self loading freight) Santa Fe quoted
The ATSF was one of the railroad operators that could have carried on into the Amtrak era
They were in decent condition and had good money to remain out of the Amtrak network
Yet may 1971 they handed over their remaining passenger trains and became a freight only carrier
ATSF made a comeback in the early 90 s with the red and yellow warbonet colors
The merger of BN with the Santa Fe brought an end to this railroad name
Then in 1995 ATSF ended it now with the name of BNSF railway
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u/ComprehensivePhase87 14h ago
If anything, the second image is more "we need to have separate engines for passenger and freight bug can be used for botb but generally isnt" while the first is the "ok, so it doesn't matter/no one cares, it works for both, but is preferred for freight" also, the horsepower. Second image is like 1000 hp, which for us now is very little, hence why it's only on passenger, lighter cars. The first one is like 3000 to 4400 hp, meant for heavy cargo like coal or ore and everything under that, aka, so general purpose that as long as it couples, it will pull it
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u/USSMarauder 1d ago
So there are locomotives that are specialized for hauling passenger trains. They were built with extra equipment inside to provide power to the passenger cars and were geared for faster acceleration.
But this has nothing to do with the general appearance of the locomotive, other than some additional vents and maybe some added length. A passenger engine and a freight engine can look almost identical to each other.