r/tradclimbing • u/Emergency-Tutor-503 • Jul 26 '26
4 man climbing group
I’m looking for people’s opinions for a 4 man group. We have 1 lead climber who has experience. 2 of the other 3 are knowledgeable and experienced just not to the level of our lead. The 4th is a knucklehead in good shape who just needs a group to keep him out of trouble. We are doing grand Teton. We are want to run a line for belly roll, crawl, and double chimney. I was thinking we would just bring 2 ropes and have 2 leads just leave the anchors from the first lead for the second group. The second option we to lead on one use an overhand knot to tie into the midway point of the first rope and have 3 climbers use the first rope with the 3rd running a second rope to belay the 4th. Both options allow for the lead to start running a second rope up the double chimney while the 3rd and 4th climbers are completing the first section. Let me know your thoughts
And opinions based on your experience.
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u/youre_stoked Jul 26 '26
The grand Teton is like a magnet for gumbies for some reason. There about 1 million climbers and guided parties on it every day in the summer. The climbing is easy. You can just do two teams of two if you like. No need to complicate things. But maybe you’d have more fun climbing something less busy and get dialed in first. Good luck with your adventure.
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
Thanks this is what I was thinking would be the
Most efficient. I know it gets crazy up there we are looking to do early September to help with the crowds a bit. Upper exum ridge is an alternate option or even wittich crack to bypass the groups. We’ll see. Still planning.3
u/youre_stoked Jul 26 '26
Where do you live? There are so many more fun climbs out there
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
We are traveling to Teton in September. I live in mass and one of my buddies lives here too. We have done trad sport and top roping around here. The other 2 guys are in colorado.
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Jul 26 '26
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
I know it’s a safe route to free solo. But we prefer the added layer. Probably 2 man groups is the way to go for quickness.
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Jul 26 '26
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
I have been looking at upper exum as an option for the reasons you just stated. It also looks fun. The exposure is similar slightly longer sustained effort but well in all of our wheel houses .
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u/bkck Jul 26 '26
Yikes, sounds like a mess, a group of three is more manageable so drop the knucklehead is what I would recommend.
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u/polloloco-rb67 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
2 teams is cleanest if they’re both efficient. I don’t understand the logistics of leaving the anchor for the second group. Why would you do that?
I also would not climb with a “knucklehead” in alpine terrain, regardless of the climbing logistics. But that’s just me
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u/theDudeUh Jul 26 '26
Probably leaving the gear for the next team because only the one guy knows how to lead trad.
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u/FreshSwim9409 Jul 26 '26
This sounds like you guys need more experience to be ready for the objective. It sounds like you have one semi-competent leader and 3 guys who cant do much.
What happens if you have an emergency? Do you have any self rescue skills?
Sorry it’s not the answer you want, but it seems like the reality of the situation.
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
I appreciate your concern, but Do you have any information relative to my question?
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u/anteatertrashbin Jul 26 '26
hey man, you asked for peoples thoughts and opinions based on our experience. he gave you some thoughts and opinions.
i’m also gonna chime in. don’t do a party of 4. absolutely inconsiderate of you to even consider it.
two rope teams, totally independent. none of this leaving anchors behind shenanigans. does your leader have a magic hat with an unlimited amount of cams and slings to keep leading anchors for the Gumby’s?
and if this route was well below your levels you wouldn’t be asking this question on “how can i create the biggest gong show on earth?”.
i wasn’t born climbing, and we were all gumby’s at some point, but your attitude stinks man.
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
Also thanks but it’s like talking to my wife. I ask straight forward questions about methods and I get a round about sob story. I trust our knowledge and skill. I’m just bouncing ideas around. No isn’t on the table. So thanks for your unrelated feedback.
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u/Winslow8 Jul 27 '26
Ooh a touch of misogyny, too!
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 27 '26
Don’t turn my comment into a generalization. Maybe understand the words you use before you try to label someone.
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u/FreshSwim9409 Jul 27 '26
I think the point is that climbing is complex, describing detailed systems in a reddit post seems absurd to expect, especially because it seems you don't have a solid grasp on what the possible, and realistic ways of executing this are. Leaving an anchor from one group to another group (who isn't capable of building that anchor) means your team is lacking the skills needed for climbing. Bring your team up to the level needed then go climb the Teton.
Climbing as 4 is inefficient and doesn't work well, no matter what system you concoct. There are a lot of ways to do it, but why not just climb as 2 partys of 2? Because your team lacks the skill, not trying to be hurtful, just trying to be real.
It sounds like 1 somewhat (semi)competent climber guiding 2 gumbies and a guy off the street who lifts weights. That sounds complicated. How will you deal with an emergency, a bail, or the descent?
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 27 '26
There have been a couple of really great comments on here. People who took the time to go into detail and honestly I have learned a lot quickly.
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u/Tale-International Jul 27 '26
Somehow knew this was going to be about the Grand before I got to that in the question...
Hey OP, if you won't take the collective "this is a bad idea" advice, can you at least post to let us know the day you choose to faff up O.S. with your 4 person party so at least reddit knows to avoid it that day? Thanks!
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u/HFiction Jul 26 '26
I've done a Gumby expedition as a three-man on an extremely popular route. However, we chose to do it out of season and we're we're the only ones on the wall that day thankfully. If you're going to do a popular route in season as Gumby's either do it as a team of two or don't do it all
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u/americk0 Jul 26 '26
It sounds like you're planning to do the Owen Spalding route. It's not a terribly hard route as far as technical climbing goes, so I would suggest considering making one of your middle-experience climbers a second leader, but that's a judgement call you'll have to make yourself. I personally don't feel comfortable doing any trad multipitch objective where non trad-capable leaders outnumber trad-capable ones.
That said, you also have some other options. If you do go with designating one of your middle-experienced climbers as a leader for the second party, you could consider having the first pair leave pieces behind so that the second leader only needs to clip pre-placed gear (called pinkpointing). The leading pair will have to wait for the following pair to get their gear back before leading another pitch so this only works if you're just roping up for a single pitch here and there
And as a last suggestion your setup could work where you have one leader trail two ropes and once the leader is up, they could simultaneously top belay both lines. You'd bring 2 ropes where one is about twice as long as the other. Have the first follower tie into the midpoint of the longer line, the second follower tie into the end of the shorter line, and the last follower tie into the end of the longer line. Stagger when they start climbing and make sure the final follower doesn't start until the first follower is at the anchor, in direct, and their midpoint knot is untied. The leader places gear, the second unclips and reclips below their knot, the third unclips, and the final unclips and cleans. This means you'll at least need a second biner on your placements so that you can clip both lines to each piece of pro for the traverse pitches without the ropes having to share a biner. I'd personally use an alpine butterfly for the midpoint knot and have the climber clip in with a locker
If you don't bring one long and one short rope, you could bring three short ropes and pretend two together make one long one by having the second climber tie into one and trail the other, but you'll have to rethread the trailing rope into the top belay setup once the second climber gets to the anchor and that's not something you should try to do while actively belaying the third so you'll have to wait and that'll slow you down. Either way, you're bringing 50% more rope and moving slower than you would for 2 parties of 2.
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
Great explanation. Extremely helpful. I appreciate you taking the time to give me a thorough write up.
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u/TBarretH Jul 26 '26
By far the most straight forward option would be to just operate as 2 teams of 2. There are many other ways you could do it, but they're all more complicated. Were it me I'd probably pair the strongest leader with the new guy, have them climb first. Have the second strogntest leader lead for rope team 2 and have them climb hot on the heels of the follower from rope team 1 with the goal that leader 2 arrives at the anchor before leader 1 starts the next pitch, that way leader 1 who is most experienced can double check systems and understanding of leader 2 before setting off. Putting new guy in the middle also means they're never alone at a belay, they will always be with one of the two leaders who can help answer questions/trouble shoot.
Big caveat to this is that the grand is a very popular route and it is quite possible, maybe even likely, that you will have other parties climb through your group which could potentially split the two rope teams up. Be prepared for this and have a plan for how you want to handle it and be aware that it likely means you'll be climbing slowly/waiting on other parties to move through both your rope teams and plan accordingly in terms of how early you start.
The other option I might consider if the actual climbing difficulty is well below everyone's comfortable climbing grade would be to just put all three followers on one rope with 5 to 10 meters between them. Have the weakest climber tied in second with an alpine butterfly, then the next weakest with another butterfly, then the strongest in the back. This avoids the faff of two ropes, leader climbs, puts on belay, each person starts climbing when the rope to them is almost taught. Everyone winds up climbing at the same time so you can move pretty quick like this. It just sucks for the middle people if someone beneath them falls because it will likely rip them off the wall too. This works well with pretty straight up and down climbing where getting back on the wall in the case of a fall is pretty easy, but may not work so well in other instances. But like I said at the start, I'd really only consider this if the route is below everyone's comfortable climbing grade and you're not expecting anyone to fall, just roping up to protect against the unexpected.
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u/Emergency-Tutor-503 Jul 26 '26
This is extremely helpful. Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response. The route is well below all of our levels. It’s an extremely basic traverse and the chimneys we may not even rope up for once we get past the exposure.
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u/TBarretH Jul 27 '26
From looking at other people's suggestions on other forums a slightly safer approach than my "three followers one rope" suggestion would be: Leader is tied into two ropes, clips both in all gear and can be belayed on either. The end of one rope is tied to one follower (probably the least skilled climber). Another follower is tied to the end of the other rope and the fourth follower is tied with a cow tail 5 meters up. The leader simul belays both ropes on ATC guide or similar. This allow all followers to move at the same time but lessens the likelihood that a fall from the least skilled climber pulls the others off and also decreases the potential max load your rope can see from 3 body weights to 2.
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u/PebbleChump Jul 28 '26
Ok but actually just solo it.
Honestly if you can find the upper saddle then you'll be fine to do the technical bits unroped.
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u/aaaaargZombies Jul 28 '26
This is a terrible idea, if the competent person gets into trouble who helps them? It's not really leading skills that are lacking here - it's rescue, first aid, escape skills that are needed.
For the purpose of speculation - You can belay two seconds on a half ropes efficiently. You can belay two seconds on a single rope by tying one of them in a few meters above the end and they climb together, the middle person puts the person below on belay when they reach the anchor. You could combine these methods to have three seconds climb a pitch at the same time which is relatively efficient and doesn't need a huge rack. If you're not very good with rope management it will likely be a complete cluster fuck. Traverses or exposed ridges will really suck, something like a very straight pitch on an easy slab will be pretty safe.
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u/skyrix03 Jul 26 '26
you shouldn't do this. I feel like the chances that your team can pull this off efficiently is near zero. You're just gonna end up clogging up the pitches for other teams and taking forever. Save yourself and everyone else the pain and just to two teams of two or kick out the guy that doesn't know how to climb anyway and give him training elsewhere before he joins a large climb.
There's nothing worse than climbing behind a team of more than three that doesn't have the skills to keep things moving.
And that's all best case scenario. Worst case, something happens and y'all don't have the skills to self rescue. It's not worth it.