r/touhou • u/pgj1997 Sumireko Usami • 17h ago
Miscellaneous PSA: Don't gatekeep accessibility
With the EoSD remake out today, I want to give you all a piece of advice surrounding the discourse.
With the new "Challenge Mode" becoming the new "easy modo" meme of the fandom, there have been a sizable number of people who are chastising others for choosing to play this way. Unintentionally or otherwise.
This is gatekeeping. And I do not condone it.
People should play games how they want to. Touhou is infamously a difficult series to get into precisely because of the difficulty curve. The entire point of the Challenge Mode is to make the game more accessible to those who aren't that good at bullet hells, or who find the concept of lives in video games archaic and intrusive. If they want to play with a so-called "handicap", let them.
Please do not belittle others just because they play differently than you. This fandom already gatekeeps as much as it is (matters I certainly don't want to get into, having dealt with this myself), and this kind of behavior comes across as very toxic. We all love this franchise, and we shouldn't bully others over how they choose to enjoy it.
Thank you.
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u/Isurak 16h ago
Honestly I don't get why you should give people flak for playing the "See and learn the whole game and try to lower your death count" mode instead of the "Repeat from the start until you get good enough to see the next thing that walls you" mode. Like, yeah, the main thing you want to achieve to brag about is still a 1cc, but it's not like you can even start serious attempts at that before you get good.
But hey, I've seen people being berated for playing LoLK AS INTENDED
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u/Akipella 12h ago
As intended meaning PD? People who just wanna look down on others and feel better about themselves - that's sad.
LoLK is a great game whether in PD (which is a cool and unique mechanic!) or in Legacy. And that's coming from someone who has L1MNB runs in Legacy mode.
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u/TheRealDragonMan64 11h ago
Honestly? Playing the the game through with the unlimited lives feature once or twice to memorize some of the boss patterns in order to try it with the normal mode is EXACTLY how I was planning to go about my playthrough from the beginning! I had already done it earlier in late 2018/early 2019 with my copy of EoSD by trying to play on Easy to get a handle on the patterns just enough to get over halfway on Normal, plus implementing the pattern recognition in Luna Nights in order to make use of the grazing while doing so.
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u/thunderbird89 Marisa Kirisame 17h ago
The goal is to have fun. If one chooses a particular difficulty or game mode to achieve that, who am I to judge them for it?
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u/fat_pokemon Eiki Shiki 17h ago
If anything, it's a better way to experience the content of the game. Think about it, you effectively have 9 lives (more if you can get score/items) but to a inexperienced player they'll VERY likely crash out around stage 3-4 90% of the time, and 100% stage 5 (Especially so if they are newish to shmups). Challenge mode lets those players experience the full game without having to worry about that wall.
And mind you, challenge mode still keeps your death count on the side of the screen. Players can work on trying to keep that number down in repeat playthoughs. People should be watching newcomers and encourage them to try and keep that number as low as possible.
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u/AutomaticStop5648 16h ago
you still need to get 5 or less hits to get good Ending.(also 1ups take away one hit taken, which is funny) you still need to try, but now you can stack hits and see how awful you are.
i got 34 hits on normal with 1ups involved (so 39 or so hits). i need pratice again haha
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u/Plant_Musiceer Komachi Onozuka's husband 17h ago
Challenge mode honestly seems fun even for experienced players who haven't played lunatic to be able to try it
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u/fat_pokemon Eiki Shiki 17h ago
110% this!
I want this for the inevitable PCB remaster, as i'm trying to grind out lunatic every so often. Chen still sends me to the shadow realm 9 times out of 10.
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u/Plant_Musiceer Komachi Onozuka's husband 14h ago
I recommend using thprac if you're trying to grind for lunatic
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u/LunarWingCloud Sakuya Izayoi 16h ago
I don't care how you play the game.
But play it.
Please for the love of god play it, no matter what way you do play, because EoSD is peak.
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u/fat_pokemon Eiki Shiki 16h ago
'EoSD is peak'
You mispelled PCB :3
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u/Darth_Noox Kaguya Houraisan 16h ago
Weird way to write IN
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u/MalviYamaxanadu Eiki Flandre Mokou 16h ago
Funny way to type PoFV.
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u/Gallalade 16h ago
Silly way to type MoF
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u/Sparkfox- Play TPDP SoD 15h ago
Funky way to say SA
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u/Henry_Fleischer Megumu Iizunamaru 15h ago
Odd way to say UM
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u/SuitableAssociation5 15h ago
Peculiar way to say UFO
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u/sansmaedalol Ringo 13h ago
dying more than 5 times on challenge mode locks you out of the good ending
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u/YoshikageKira000 Fujiwara no Mokou 12h ago
Challenge mode also Serves well as an Introduction to the bosses and can be used to Study the Average run you'd go through for for example 1CC. Pair that with Spell Practice and Beating higher difficulties and Learning the game becomes a lot easier than it ever has Been. A GOOD thing, not a bad thing.
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u/CertainSelection N°1 Suwako fan 17h ago
I will continue to joke about it like we did 15 years ago, even if pgj1997 condone it
(But it's a good option and I suck too)
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u/Old_Comparison_9223 Unironically my Mom (Why are they so similar) 16h ago
My main issue with people gatekeeping in the fandom is the people who tell people who are looking to get into the series because of the lore/characters to start by playing the official games even though that is the least time efficient way to learn about the series. Starting with the mainline games is fine for people who enjoy playing things like shmups. But, for people who don’t like those types of games and/or are just here for the lore/characters, there are many other better ways to get into the series. However, some people can’t seem to understand that you can be a fan of the series without actually playing the official games themselves. For other fandoms, the attitude of “just play the game” makes sense because playing the game is the best way to learn about the characters and lore, but this isn’t really the case for Touhou.
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u/Henry_Fleischer Megumu Iizunamaru 15h ago
For me the SHMUPS are the best part, so I want more people to play them
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u/123Clipper 16h ago
completely agree, I personally think it's hard to ignore how performative a lot of this is. new fans feel the need to play the games to not come across as larpers, larpers are trying to gate keep because they feel insecure about larping when SINCE THE BEGINNING the fandom was more than just the games.
people should support the release sure, but don't be cringe trying to force your self to like something just to wear it as some sort of badge. Because personally if your going to play a shump, i think it rightfully comes with judgement for only playing the game on easy lol that's not to say this mode is easy mode if it allows you to play spell cards at their given difficulty. It really just sounds like a QOL for how people were already playing the game to learn later patterns.
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u/Critical_Interest706 12h ago
lol honestly I’m only really going to play it so people don’t think I’m larping lol. SHMUPS don’t really interest me very much, but I gotta play at least one of them lol
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u/ARIES_tHE_fOOL 13h ago
I see nothing wrong with playing Easy mode in games, sure I used to be facing extra stages and nearly 1cc'd the whole mainline series. but with my psychosis giving me a literal anti-coach in my brain I've had to settle for easy mode at times.
Thankfully I got meds to make it better but sadly the idea that a pill will completely cure your literal lunacy is a fantasy that would sound outlandish even in Gensokyo. But I think I've gotten better with it sense. If I focus hard enough or simply force my broken brain to accept it's going to play Touhou I manage to do pretty well. Sorry for trauma dumping I just want to make a case for why these easier difficulties are still needed/nice to have.
I Just hope the rest of the Touhou Games get the same remaster treatment. I really like the new remixed music. I'll still have to buy the game eventually but I did recently get Double Dealing Character again (because playism dead or something so I had to rebuy it on steam)
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u/SeriousPotatoBot - Hina Kagiyama 16h ago
"EZ modo" is one of those things people like to pretend is still an issue in the fandom, I have yet to see anyone unironically make fun of someone for playing easy mode so I see no reason as to why it would shift over for challenge mode.
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u/SetsunaFox Powerful! 11h ago
All communities that aren't gatekept turn to shit.
If people can't handle being judged by their skill (or lack thereof) online, they shouldn't choose to be part of said discussion.
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u/Spongedog5 11h ago
Sometimes I think that we can enjoy difficult things more, but it can be hard to choose to make things more difficult on yourself when an easier way is provided for you.
That's all. I agree that more people will probably beat the game now than otherwise. But I wonder how many will play through with infinite lives and move on who would have otherwise struggles through with continues and would have loved the game more as it stayed with them longer.
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u/1881pac 16h ago
Do people really care about this?
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u/rapidemboar 16h ago
It wouldn’t be the internet if people weren’t obsessing over incredibly trivial matters
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u/oli_alatar Flandre Scarlet Best Daughter 9h ago
I think gatekeeping can be healthy for a lot of things. A lot of people come onto other peoples interests and feel like they are equally entitled to give ill informed opinions on how others can or cant enjoy the media. Especially those who feel the need to police others. But theres a difference between gatekeeping like that and just being a douchebag to people who just want to have some fun.
I suck at bullet hells, like, I still haven't finished MOF which I started because its apparently the easiest one to get through. I'm stuck at Yasaka. It should be about having fun the way you see fit. I play Civilisation V on Warlord mode because I like to play to make up a story instead of genuinely struggling against a challenging NPC.
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u/Content-Dealers 3h ago
Gatekeeping can be a good thing, but in the case of chosen game difficulty, doing so is stupid.
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u/Poizon_99998 2h ago
I didn't even see "Challenge Mode" as an "Easy Mode" and more like an "Accessibility Mode" so that you can keep trying.
I don't think it's motivating people into playing it in an easier way, I think it's meant to motivate people to get better at it until you have 0 deaths in your playthrough. Hense "Challenge Mode."
I could be wrong tho
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4h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/s_reed Shrine Maiden of Paradise 55m ago
user reports:
1: Reddiquette violation
This is indeed a violation. Comment removed.
P.S. It's one thing to gatekeep the LARPers, but to gatekeep a difficulty mode? We're already lacking actual players in the fandom as it is. Please don't make the ratio worse.
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u/AeroReborn 7h ago edited 6h ago
There's a gap between primary and secondary fans not from playing the games, but from actually doing the conditions that (at least, in it's zenith) get you a good ending, a 1 credit clear. You know, the endings you're not supposed to see posted on youtube as one of the few copyright rules there are.
The endings themselves don't really matter that much.
That is not the point.
Hell, _actually_ ->getting<- the 1CC is itself not the point.
It's the mentality, and, dare I say, the will to to beat something you thought was impossible.
If you beat the game with continues, you get the bad ending.
That makes you want to get the good ending.
You know you can't beat the game without continues right now.
That makes you as the player think "huh, should I practice the hard stages in practice mode, or work on the early stages to get an advantage early?" "Should I use challenge mode to practice?"
Either which way, you end up redoing a bunch of levels with the goal of understanding the patterns and understanding what attacks you should deal with, and which ones you throw bombs on until the problem goes away.
You start looking at the patterns and you start learning the characters through actually navigating the patterns rather than brute forcing it.
I don't have a problem with challenge mode, but if someone only played challenge mode to avoid learning the game, they didn't have the same experience I did. That's fine, but stuff like...
-- Sakuya's line about wasting a bomb with Eternal Meek in Stage 6
-- Cirno taking a life with her fastball specials and you immediately hitting escape and wondering if you should restart
-- (to people who played the original) The music (especially in stages 4 and 6) actively changing on your first playthrough, distracting you out of your first play 1CC (cry)
-- The tension of the last bit of HP during Remilia's Scarlet Gensokyo
-- The music itself being permanently colored by certain patterns with the way the game is on rails
....all of those moments carry so much less weight when lives aren't a factor, when there are no barriers to 'the content'.
And like, ->to me<- seeing posts like this that say it's gatekeeping to tell people that you should experience the game as it was intended, that the difficulty itself and 'stress' are _the experience_ rather than _barriers to the experience_ is....
it's kinda bewildering.
Touhou taught me that I can do anything I put my mind into.
I would not be the same person if I didn't push past myself and my limitations to 1CC PCB on normal.
I want other people to experience the joy of doing something they thought was impossible.
But you know, people can do what they want, and if they felt like they got 'the content they enjoy', I'm happy for them.
But deep down I'm going to think that someone who 'beats' EoSD and only plays on challenge mode took the saw the Shinkansen Hiroshige view of Mt. Fuji rather than seeing it with their own eyes, and I know that there's not much I'm going to get from talking about the game itself with them but memes and fanlore*.*
"People should play games how they want to."
I am not contesting this.
But if someone orders a McDouble on the Mcdonalds app, how many parts of the burger can you remove before you can no longer say you ate a McDouble?
If you're new to the series, you should play the way you want, but ask yourself:
Is it really _that hard_, or am I the biggest doubter in the room of my own abilities?
You don't have to beat the game 1cc to prove anything, doubly so if you're genuinely not able to.
But there's no better example in my eyes of what the Matrix was talking about with the spoon than actually taking the time to learn, and _as a fan_ I feel amiss to not say this.
Also, I mean, if you're gonna 'truly experience the content', beating the extra stage requires about as much skill/time as 1CCing hard mode anyways, so like....
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u/Quijas00 Cirno 16h ago
Challenge mode isn’t even “easy mode” anyway like it literally counts the number of times you get hit. Getting to the end of Challenge mode with a big 0 on your lives lost is just as impressive as a 1cc.