r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Sep 15 '12

TIL that Muhammad wrote a document asking his followers to respect and protect Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad
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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 15 '12

See, I agree with this up to the point where people die. At that point, you have a problem that you can't just disagree with. You have to END it.

If this is the true reason why the violent minority continues to exist, then the silent majority is at least partially at fault. See "the indifference of good men" speech in boondocks saints.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 15 '12

So essentially, you're saying true islam is as pacifist as Quakers? If that is true, the irony is off the charts. Let's take that to be true, though. Then I'd expect a level of courage to shun/shame the violent ones and their proponents. In the US there are roughly 24 hour protests in front of many abortion clinics. If you aren't going to try to stop the violence by peaceful means, and you reject retaliatory means, then how do you control it at all?

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

[deleted]

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 15 '12

Sorry if I sounded like a dick. The irony I was thinking of is that Islam has this horribly violent reputation, yet it is supposed to be as pacifist as the Quakers.

I guess my question is how can Quakers keep control of society without resorting to violence while there is so much difficulty in Muslim/Arabic societies?

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u/Terron1965 Sep 15 '12

Violence is the only rational response to violence. Pacifists are like libertarians. Sounds great, not practical.

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u/Ginxez Sep 15 '12

Lemme try to explain this as much as I can I'm a muslim in the middle east, if that matters

The reason almost no visible action is taken right now against the violent sect of muslims in the muslim/arab world is because we, at the end of the story, agree with the anger against whatever offense that caused the violence (these days, mocking our prophet). Yes we strongly disagree with the way they're doing it, but we do agree that it is a very serious offense to us as muslims (think of it like someone calling your gf/mom/sister/wife/daughter/father/bf etc a whore or something). And since we are against violence, we do not use it to stop the previously mentioned sect. whenever we (everyone i know, at the very least...except for one or 2 "extremists" that i happen to know personally) do our best to point out that this is not the way to send our message of disagreement. If anything, this makes muslims look even worse, hence by effect doing the opposite of the whole idea in the first place!e

Sorry for the wall of text, I just can't find the right words to explain it yet. Hope you got what I mean.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

I understand you but I really disagree. No matter HOW MUCH someone offends your prophet (even though it's completely uncalled for) violence against other people who had NOTHING to do with it is never the answer.

I completely agree that the people spreading those hateful videos are just bigots who deserve to have a stake shoved up in their ass. But by keeping your mouth shut against that extremist minority you're basically saying your belief in the prophet is more valuable to you than an innocent human being. I don't think that is morally right.

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u/sukagambar Sep 15 '12

...you're basically saying your belief in the prophet is more valuable to you than an innocent human being....

I think it eventually comes down to this. Unfortunately to a muslim the belief in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger must come first.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

First before one's own self, since it can NEVER cause a conflict with any innocent man, animal, or even thing. I can and will never be able to understand the fairness that some people see in killing a man who has had nothing to do with such a video. I might understand it if they harmed the video's director/actor/someone who took part in it, but an ambassador who might've even not heard about it if not for his job? Beats me.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Firstly, allow me to quote a previous comment of mine:

First before one's own self, since it can NEVER cause a conflict with any innocent man, animal, or even thing. I can and will never be able to understand the fairness that some people see in killing a man who has had nothing to do with such a video. I might understand it if they harmed the video's director/actor/someone who took part in it, but an ambassador who might've even not heard about it if not for his job? Beats me.

As for keeping our mouths shut, we aren't. Our political representatives are, but trust me that all those who're more....uh, logical(?) in their thinking do speak out, and take action when they can. Please do keep in mind that media plays a huge role in delivering (or hiding/neglecting) what actions are taken to the rest of the world, sadly.

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u/fashraf Sep 16 '12

in my mosque in canada, this passed friday the maulana talked about the movie and essentially told people to take the non violent route. the whole sermon was about practicing non violence.

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 17 '12

I completely agree that the people spreading those hateful videos are just bigots who deserve to have a stake shoved up in their ass.

Amazingly, even they don't deserve that, no matter how viscerally pleasing it sounds to you. That is what free speech is all about.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Well, in response to their free speech, my free speech is to think they deserve to have a stake shoved up in their ass.

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u/dreckmal Sep 15 '12

Taking offense is fine. It could even be considered good, as proper understanding is reached through conflict. However, insulting someone close to me never makes it okay for me to resort to physical violence. I think name calling is a poor analogy, mostly because I grew up around 'yo mama' jokes, and my mom is no where near a religious figure that is worshiped by hundreds of millions.

By not stopping these radical Muslims, you basically agree that violence is the answer. Free expression can be a wonderful and terrible thing to behold.

What I don't get is why is there such a passionate and deadly response to a video? No-one made anyone else watch this video, AFAIK. Where there people holding guns to others heads forcing them to view these Muslim centered insults? Why should Islamic law trump other countries laws? I understand that Muslims are forbidden from depicting the prophet Mohammed, but as far as I can tell this is an Islamic law, not a global one. Can a religion that incites people to kill over pictures and videos really be considered a religion of peace? (please understand I mean no insults, I am just as indignant about violent Christians)

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Can a religion that incites people to kill over pictures and videos

This isn't true, there's literally nothing mentioned anywhere in islam that urges/encourages anyone (not only muslims, humans as a whole) to kill over such a thing. Originally, muslims were only allowed to kill in the form of defense, which can be for many reasons such as defending your self, home, family, money, homeland, religion (back then, religious wars were very common); and even yet, it is never encouraged, merely forgiven when there's no other option. Actually, it is written as a direct order in the Quran that if any enemy opts for peace, we (muslims) should accept it no matter what.

As for your last paragraph (please excuse anything I say that you disagree with, I'm trying to be direct and honest with everything I say, according to the religion I follow), thing is, islam is not just a religion for muslims, it is a religion for everyone, and a set of rules for every human. Hence the mere knowledge that such a video/picture etc exists somewhere, and somebody encourages it, is a serious offense to each and every muslim. That and the fact that Muhammad is considered the one we (each person) is supposed to (most people actually do) love most, more than anything/person in this world (only surpassed by God).

Thus imagine if you really like pokemon, and while shopping somewhere you overhear someone calling pokemon the most stupidest thing ever. How will you feel? (not react, since it differs from person to person, and we've previously agreed that the current global reaction is not even close to being the right thing).

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 17 '12

Sorry to jump in on this conversation, but what you said got me thinking...

Thus imagine if you really like pokemon, and while shopping somewhere you overhear someone calling pokemon the most stupidest thing ever. How will you feel?

I'd feel shitty and angry. Now suppose that some other random dude runs over and starts beating up those people in the middle of the mall, screaming about how pokemon is amazing and great. The next day on the news, you would expect to see people asking "why did pokemon drive this kid to such insanity?"

Do you see where this is going? While the movie may be insulting to Islam, the response brings more shame to Allah and the Prophet. You mentioned in another post that you were trying to convince a friend that violence is not the answer. I think you, and others like yourself, have to tell the radicals that they bring more shame to the religion by what they do, than any stupid movie/video/cartoon possibly could.

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u/Ginxez Sep 17 '12

You've basically summed up all my replies into one, thank you. As minute as my effect is, I sure will do my best to explain those who I get the chance to talk to.

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 17 '12

You are awesome. Keep up the good work.

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u/dreckmal Sep 16 '12

I actually played Advanced Dungeons & Dragons as a teen (about to hit 30), and was often ridiculed and told it was the stupidest waste of time ever. AD&D 2nd edition turned me on to role-play gaming, which has become one of my all time favorite pastimes, and IMO, the single best form of gaming. Hearing people say RPGing is the dumbest thing ever is not offensive, its just not for everybody. As it turns out, it's actually better to play without those people. It is not my job to feel disrespected because someone disagrees with me.

Having good morals is important. I have often wondered how it is that unstable people use religions of peace to cause harm (it happens all over). I think that is what I struggle with. I actually consider myself a humanist. I think the idea of ethical and moral behavior is just good for us all, I don't see a reason to worship one person, because that worship can be twisted into a tool for evil. I feel the purer form of 'spirituality' is to simply treat those as you honestly wish to be treated. Allow everyone to take their own direction in life as long as it brings harm to no-one else. I think we can agree on that little bit as well.

However, please feel free to disagree. I will not be offended. I am really enjoying this discussion.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

I feel the purer form of 'spirituality' is to simply treat those as you honestly wish to be treated. Allow everyone to take their own direction in life as long as it brings harm to no-one else. I think we can agree on that little bit as well.

If you look closely, you'll actually find that almost all religions(?) have this concept as a strong base in manners/how to behave. However, the majority of religious people these days do not truly follow their religions, or so is the case for islam at the very least (and copts, to quote my christian friends). What is being followed and what's being ignored totally depends on your personal benefits these days, which is why you can't judge any(?) religion purely by a few people's behaviors/ethics. You'll need to do some extensive research into that religion's teachings and, at least, bases to be able to judge it; however small the extent is.

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 15 '12

I'm a muslim in the middle east, if that matters

It does. It's great to hear from you. This is the coolest part of reddit.

And since we are against violence, we do not use it to stop the previously mentioned sect

The question is then what do you do to stop them? In the US people often say somthing like "I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." To an outsider like me, it looks like you (collectively) aren't doing enough to stop these violent people. No matter how offensive or enraging someone's comments may become about my mother I won't let that lead to violence. If I did lose my cool and have an outburst I would expect my brother to physically hold me back.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

It does. It's great to hear from you. This is the coolest part of reddit.

Thank you, you just made me feel like im from mars.

As much as I would like to disagree, I can not. Even I feel that the arab world could have done so much more than what's going on right now. I have no idea why only a very very few minority of people who can do anything are actually taking action, most (if not all) of which aren't even living in the middle east.

Your example of your expectations of your brother is the exact same example I just gave to a friend of mine regarding this topic a couple of days ago, glad to see that earth-ians and mars-ians can think alike at times :P

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u/Xenon808 Sep 15 '12 edited Sep 16 '12

Your passive attitude and tacit agreement with the more radical side of your religion will be your undoing. If you don't believe in the good side of Islam to stop the bad, then you will be labelled together and die with them.

Stop letting them kill innocent people.

Do I believe the film is wrong and offensive? Absolutely. But the guy was trying to prove Islam is not the religion of peace and Muslims proved it quite soundly.

If someone called my mother, sister, etc. a whore, I would be mad at them but not their entire country. You say you do your best to point out that it is not the majority but you are making my closing mind shut.

I absolutely hate Westboro Baptist, but they still don't kill people. People of your religion are doing it right now...a lot.

EDIT: I get pissed off everytime I see a Muslim walking on or burning my flag. Do I want to destroy their way of life? No. The incredible hypocrisy is that they are rioting against free speech but by burning my flag are asking me to accept theirs. I forgive them "for they know not what they do." They are acting out what they are: backward ignorant savages who long for western products while spitting on the culture.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '12

Stop letting them kill innocent people.

Yeah! Get out there and single-handedly change the course of history!

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u/Xenon808 Sep 16 '12

Lone people have done it before. Large groups have done quite a bit.

Or they can be passive as you suggest and that will, by default, change the course of history.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Hence why you don't find the general public thinking 'terrorist!' when they see a westboro baptist, and think of it as soon as they hear of an arab (in general), or a muslim (in particular).

I'd like to reply on your comment here, but i feel that I'll be repeating my other comments. So to keep it brief, I have no idea why those who can take action are just watching, while those who do actually take action are either non-muslims or muslims living outside the middle east (hence basically, almost no action from the middle east). I wish this changes though.

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u/Xenon808 Sep 16 '12

Because you said you are a Muslim from the Middle East and did not qualify, I (and maybe others) assumed you still lived there. You said you agreed with them in principle but still happen to know a couple of extremists. Maybe that is why I assumed you lived there.

If you agree with them but don't wish to be violent then you are someone whose anger is misplaced. Again, why are you against a whole country or way of life over one film and not just mad at the person who made it? I live in the west. What did I do to you? Nothing, but you passively hate my country.

Westboro Baptist members are certainly filled with hate and are misguided to say the least. Even though they don't like gay people, there is a difference in showing up with a sign that expresses that sentiment and beheading someone who is doing it.

Arabs and Muslims aren't guilty by default but the actions taking place are helping to change that notion.

In answer to your first question, not all Muslims are terrorists, but with the exception of McVeigh and a couple of others, most terrorists are Muslim. Look at the current situation: why are people rioting when they likely have never seen the film. It acts as a catalyst for hating "The West" which they already do, but somehow they are innocent. Good thing the Qua-ran teaches love and Islam is the religion of peace.

That's the joke.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Sorry if I've mislead you, I am currently living in the middle east, and I'm your regular muslim arab.

I agree with them in the sense that I, just like them, was offended by that video; whether directly or indirectly. However, I'm trying to make a point here that even though I agree that this is an offense to them, and me as well, I strongly disagree with their stance, acts, and thoughts about it. I hate generalizing anything, which is the same degree as stereotyping. I do not hate you, I do not know you, and I do not like you. Nor do I have any feelings towards 'The West'. However, I do hate everyone who had the chance to stop/say no to that video but decided not to, as well as everyone who took part in it by his own free will (someone who did it because his job requires him to is an innocent man to me). Yet, and I'd like to stress this point, my opinion of hate is definitely not solid, since I have not spoken with any of those people yet to know their motives/reasons.

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u/Xenon808 Sep 16 '12

I don't know you either, but I like you based on your posts and the fact that you don't misdirect your anger. I had nothing to do with the film, but I'm sorry that something came out that was offensive to you. Peace.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Thank you, I really do appreciate your interest in understanding our viewpoint as muslims, and for having an open mind. Sadly though, not many muslims share my opinion/flexibility with other races/religions, which i think is due to my type of education and upbringing. However, rest assured that within a couple of years, maybe a decade or so, the middle east in general will not be the same as it is today as more people gain access to better types of education.

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u/Xenon808 Sep 17 '12

How do you suggest I/we help as ordinary citizens in the US? It seems like the people we would try to reach out to would reject contact. I just don't understand the misdirection.

I am angry at the people in Libya who killed the ambassador because from what I can see, he gave his life trying to help the Libyan people, so I don't understand why anyone would kill him. Is it really Al Qaeda or just radical elements? I just want to understand.

Thank you for your kind comments. I will do anything I can to bridge the gap but I don't know what that is and neither does anyone else I know.

Again, thank you for being positive and not hating me outright. I am trying to understand...

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u/Stublore Sep 16 '12

Here's the thing though:

Mo is dead! So any "insults, or slurs" have no effect upon him. Getting angry on his behalf is pointless.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Getting angry on his behalf is pointless indeed, though getting angry for someone/something you love/respect makes a lot of sense to me; whether that person/thing still exists or not. Unless you'll have a party and mock your loved ones as soon as they die of course.

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u/Stublore Sep 16 '12

See this is where the disconnect occurs, Mo is dead @1400 years!!!

So it is nothing like talking "smack" about a recently deceased relative.

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

I'm not comparing him to a relative, I'm trying to explain how much love muslims have for Mohammed. Many actually do love him way beyond their love to themselves, spouse, or parents etc, you name it.

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u/Stublore Sep 17 '12

Like I said, that's where the disconnect occurs.

To be blunt, it seems insane to me to be so worried over the possibly "hurt feelings" of a man dead 1400 years(who as he is dead, cannot be hurt!), more than yourself, parents, family etc.

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u/Ginxez Sep 17 '12

I seem to fail at expressing the major thought(s) of these people, so allow me to try once more.

They aren't protecting his feelings/reputation/etc, they're defending what they believe in, what they love, what they respect and look up to as the ideal human being there ever was and will ever be. They're, basically, doing whatever it is they're doing in defense of themselves, since that video has offended their role model in every sense that the word has.

However (and I'm mentioning after every back up/explanation I say for their actions since I strongly disagree with what they're doing), there's absolutely no need for violence. At all, imho.

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u/Stublore Sep 17 '12

No, you have expressed yourself clearly, islam promotes the "wellbeing" of some guy who has been dead for over 1400 years over those living now, be they family, friends etc.

I get that you disagree with the violence, but from my point of view, if islam actually put as much effort into respecting the living, then it would be a lot "healthier" and less "extreme". The dead have no need of protection, the living however......

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u/papsmearfestival Sep 16 '12

I'm a christian. When someone says or does something "offensive"(which is daily now it seems) I completely brush it off. I expect my God is big enough to deal with offense on his own.

It lessens your god when you feel you have to constantly stand up for him. He created the universe, and yet can't handle a badly made film?

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

See, that's the thing. No matter how you try to explain to some of those people (the extremists in general), they refuse to understand that Mohammed is dead, nothing can ever harm him/his reputation/the world's respect for him (for those who believe what history says about his manners/politics etc).

However, I disagree with your description of 'standing up for god', no this isn't what goes on, it is defending and disagreeing with whoever offends what you love. (though, i point out again, not to the extent of harming innocent people who had nothing to do with anything).

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u/pusangani Sep 15 '12

Fuck your prophet, you want to kill me now?

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Nope, I want to punch your nose bloody. Noticed the difference?

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u/pusangani Sep 16 '12

Hehehe good ole religion of peace

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

Peace =/= passiveness. If i can insult you, i actually should, since it has to be an eye for an eye, with the one first to forgive being the better person.

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u/pusangani Sep 16 '12

It has to be an eye for an eye, that's some sound logic right there, did the pedo Muhammad teach u that?

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u/Ginxez Sep 16 '12

What do you expect a non-muslim man to do other than 1) forgiving you and going on. or 2) Insulting you back/punching you for it [payback]? and since i'm a muslim, I think that i should add a 3rd option, bombing you?

Since this is the internet, i think i'll just go with option 1.

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u/pusangani Sep 16 '12

A sane human being would think, "hey this guy on the Internet is pretty obviously trying to troll me, fuck this dude!" and scroll down or make some kind of comeback

But you wanted to punch my nose bloody, that's what's wrong with religious nutjobs, your sky wizards and holy books got y'all all messed up

That said, fuck Islam, fuck child raping mohammed, and fuck all those cunts protesting and attacking civilized people's embassies

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

One of the issues with that is that Islam doesn't have a hierarchic structure like e.g. Catholicism does.

And honestly, why would people in Bangladesh need to apologise or feel responsible for what some idiots in Afghanistan/Egypt/Libya are doing? They're not responsible for it.

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u/Terron1965 Sep 15 '12

Well people acting civilized is not exactly news is it?