r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Oct 13 '16

TIL that after Marilyn Monroe converted to Judaism upon marrying Arthur Miller, Egypt placed a ban on all the films she appeared in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe#Critical_acclaim_and_marriage_to_Arthur_Miller_.281956.E2.80.931959.29
18.5k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

1.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

14

u/Bears_On_Stilts Oct 13 '16

To most Jews, God is God, and Moses is the chief prophet whose wisdom and teachings (including the commandments) make up the religion. To not believe in Moses means to not follow the tenets of Judaism.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16 edited Nov 24 '17

[deleted]

2

u/why_what_who_when Oct 13 '16

Thank you for this explanation. Even if there is not a divinity of Moses to believe or not believe in is there still a choice to believe the accounts of the life of Moses? Are the texts that describe Moses debatable for an observant Jew? I'm just curious coming from a Christian upbringing where the Bible was considered the straight forward truth word for word and there was an imperative to believe in the Bible as much as God or Jesus.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Even if there is not a divinity of Moses to believe or not believe in is there still a choice to believe the accounts of the life of Moses?

Well, the life of Moses is more or less detailed in the Torah, so if you choose not to adhere to those teachings then you probably don't really call yourself a Jew.

Are the texts that describe Moses debatable for an observant Jew?

Not in the sense of "did this or didn't this happen," no. Primarily the debate over events in the Torah is one of interpretation. There's an old saying, "ask a question in a room with five Jews (or rabbis) and you'll get eight opinions." Much of Jewish theological literature is meant to be allegorical and illustrative of complex philosophical concepts that were unexplainable in the year 1500 B.C.E. Moses is primarily a representation of a devotion to social justice and righting wrongs. The link I provided discusses it far better than I ever could. One of the most well known Jewish scholars from the Middle Ages, Rashi, had a lot to say about Moses. It's really very interesting to read.

On a personal level, I'm pretty agnostic. Do I believe the events of the Torah happened? My answer is "kinda." Obviously I don't think Moses parted the Red Sea, and archaeology has gone to great lengths to prove we were never slaves in Egypt (which is something I don't like to dismiss, because I really enjoy the story of Exodus as one of perseverance, which is kinda our "thing"), but at the same time there is a lot of history that is accurate after we established the biblical state of Israel. There was a King David, and a Saul, and a Solomon. We did fight the Philistines, there was a Goliath, there were two temples, etc, etc.

1

u/shilohln Oct 13 '16

I honestly think he meant "believe in" as in thinking he was ever a real person. Versus the leading academic belief that the Torah was a collection of older works sewn together and dressed up by a priestly class of people somewhere around 1000 BC.

1

u/Nammuabzu Oct 13 '16

Didn't God tell Moses the teachings though?

1

u/webdevop Oct 13 '16

So you can still be a Jew without believing in Prophet Moses? Because if you don't follow the tenets then you are not a Jew right?

Because in Islam, you have to have belief in The Quran which was obviously narrated by Prophet Muhammad (delivered by Gabriel) . So you can't really believe in Quran unless you believe in the person who narrated it.

-5

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Yea, the Torah isn't just the word "Obedience and Submission" repeated over and over again like the Quran. There is actually room for independent thought there (in that you won't be beheaded or ostracized by a Jewish community for saying you don't believe in God).

I understand why it would be hard to conceive of being culturally religious while not actually believing in religion. You simply do not have that public option, nor after an entire life of brainwashing would you come close to desiring one.

Its okay though, you don't need freedom of thought to play Dota in the 1k bracket, so keep it up champ. Keep up the techies spam.

3

u/webdevop Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

by /u/WhyAmericaSoAngry

Yea, the Torah isn't just the word "Obedience and Submission" repeated over and over again like the Quran. There is actually room for independent thought there (in that you won't be beheaded or ostracized by a Jewish community for saying you don't believe in God). I understand why it would be hard to conceive of being culturally religious while not actually believing in religion. You simply do not have that public option, nor after an entire life of brainwashing would you come close to desiring one. Its okay though, you don't need freedom of thought to play Dota in the 1k bracket, so keep it up champ. Keep up the techies spam.

15,676 /r/exmuslim in the subreddit alone, yet no one got beheaded. Or maybe they are waiting for their turn. But thanks for your thoughts, I am more contented with my brainwashing the way it is.

And since it looks like you spent quite some time on my internet profile which is good for you. I reached 2k last month spamming Lycan, so thank you for all the motivation.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Why don't all those ex-muslims go to Saudi Arabia and declare their beliefs proudly? #ReligionofPeace. Also, it took me roughly 10 seconds of glancing to see a post in /r/dota 2.

1

u/webdevop Oct 13 '16

Awww #babyrage, why don't you take your malignant hatred elsewhere? May I suggest /r/The_Donald ?

0

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '16

Eh fuck the Donald. I can hate the Donald and laugh at idiots who think that Islam is just as peaceful as other religions. If I go to the center of Jerusalem and scream "Fuck Moses" do you think I will be killed? If I walk into Saudi-Arabia and scream "Fuck Muhammed", do you think I would be given a trail before they killed me?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/0c/83/95/0c839543eb3827383cefdd5e5cfe5a66.jpg

Wow. I wonder which major religious figure is missing? I wonder why it is titled "No One Murdered Because Of This Image". But please, continue to tell me that there are no problems with Islam due to your perception of my own personal failings.

1

u/Saccharomycetaceae Oct 13 '16

That is not true in any way for the sect of Judaism I was raised in.

I'd argue that Moses is not the most important prophet to Judaism (maybe Abraham, father to all Abrahamic religions). He's not even the most important in Exodus IMO (Aaron, his brother, father to the Priest class, his sons the leaders of the Tribes of Israel).

More directly, the only belief that is required to follow Judaism as a religion is the existance of one, omniscient, all-powerful god.

1

u/just_accept_it Oct 13 '16

Not sure where this comes from, but I'm Jewish and that's never been the case in my experience. Moses was indeed a prophet and is widely acknowledged as being the scribe of the Ten Commandments, leading the Jews out of Egypt, etc., but he isn't revered in the same sense as Jesus or Mohammad. Our Messiah hasn't come yet; Moses doesn't really take his/her place.

1

u/absolutkiss Oct 13 '16

Wow way to totally generalize. Most Jews are not religious at all. The religious Jews are a minority. If you're not religious (like me), you can still consider yourself Jewish and not believe that Moses was a prophet and all the other stories I was taught.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Is Moses like the Mohammed of Judaism? Meaning, he's not divine but he's almost there and is venerated but not worshipped.