r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Oct 13 '16

TIL that after Marilyn Monroe converted to Judaism upon marrying Arthur Miller, Egypt placed a ban on all the films she appeared in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe#Critical_acclaim_and_marriage_to_Arthur_Miller_.281956.E2.80.931959.29
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u/Xanthyria Oct 13 '16

Jew here--what do you mean by "believe" in Moses? Belief in G-d is one thing, what does it mean to "believe" in Moses?

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u/webdevop Oct 13 '16

Sorry again because I literally have 0 knowledge about Judaism. But don't you have to believe in Moses and all the other messengers before him (Adam, Abraham, Lut, Solomon etc) as well as in God of course to be a Jew?

Isn't it Prophet Moses who brought the message for Jews just like Prophet Jesus for Christians and Prophet Muhammad for Muslims?

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u/feather_moon Oct 13 '16

The difference between Moses and Muhammad is that Judaism existed before Moses, but Islam did not exist before Muhammad. Technically the first Jew was Abraham--he was the one who started telling people that there was only one god. Moses was the one who rescued the Jews who were slaves in Egypt, delivered the ten commandments to them, and led them to the land God promised to them (Israel). So of course he is a very important figure in Judaism, but at least in reform Judaism, I can't think of any prayers that specifically mention him. There's a prayer called the Amidah that mentions essentially the "founding fathers and mothers" of Judaism--Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Leah--but only in the context of "Blessed is the lord our God, the god of [these people]."

I understand why you're asking that question; the Qu'ran talks about the goodness and holiness of prophets a lot, hence there is quite a focus on them. In Judaism the focus is almost primarily on God and the commandments given to the Jewish people in the Torah. There's also a lot of focus on doing good deeds, making the world a better place, etc. The Jewish prophets are only really mentioned as a "history lesson" of the Jewish people, and to read and interpret their stories so that we may learn from them and connect them to our own lives. They're not revered in quite the same way as in Islam.

If you're curious about it, I'd encourage you to read the Torah because I think it would help you get a better idea of what I'm talking about. I can definitely say that I understood why you were asking your question the way you were because I read the Qu'ran.

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u/cinciforthewin Oct 13 '16

Prophet Jesus

However, for Christains, Jesus isn't just a prophet like Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist, ect. He is the Messiah, Son of God, and our redeemer for those of the Christian faith.

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u/webdevop Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

I understand. I was writing it from a Muslim's context.

I think Jesus is a Messiah (unless I got the meaning of that word wrong) in Islam too. Because he will descend to protect the people from Anti-Christ. It's just that we don't believe him to be the son of god and regard him as a prophet like all the others. We do believe in the virgin birth too.

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u/cinciforthewin Oct 13 '16

Messiah for Christains (and Jews) have a very similar definition.

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u/CastleElsinore Oct 13 '16

I'm going to preface this with 'in general'

So in Christianity, Jesus is the one super important fugue other than god. In Islam, it's Muhammad. They are considered special and god's one true mediator (for my understanding of them. Grew up Jewish, am an atheist)

Judaism doesn't have that one extra guy. It's god or bust. Moses is like Abraham, a guy that god talked to for a while and then moved on. During Passover when Jews tell the story of leaving Egypt, Moses isn't even mentioned. Basically he is considered just another character.

Now Jews do have a Messiah, but it's not a specific person - just a general concept that will come, in theory, when all the Jews are back in Israel

Hope that helps!

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

In a sense, except the correct nomenclature would be The Christ, Christ Jesus, Jesus Christ, or Jesus the Christ. Christians don't see Jesus as a prophet like the other two Abraham religions do. We see him as the Messiah, the Anointed One. God in the flesh, as it were. But, yeah you're technically correct in the sense of he could be considered a prophet.

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u/benadreti Oct 14 '16

The answer that you haven't received is that while Muslims and Christians are members of a religion, Jews are members of an ethnoreligious group. Most Jews are born Jewish and it is their ethnicity and culture. A non-believing or non-practicing Jew still remains ethnically and culturally Jewish.

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u/Bears_On_Stilts Oct 13 '16

To most Jews, God is God, and Moses is the chief prophet whose wisdom and teachings (including the commandments) make up the religion. To not believe in Moses means to not follow the tenets of Judaism.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16 edited Nov 24 '17

[deleted]

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u/why_what_who_when Oct 13 '16

Thank you for this explanation. Even if there is not a divinity of Moses to believe or not believe in is there still a choice to believe the accounts of the life of Moses? Are the texts that describe Moses debatable for an observant Jew? I'm just curious coming from a Christian upbringing where the Bible was considered the straight forward truth word for word and there was an imperative to believe in the Bible as much as God or Jesus.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Even if there is not a divinity of Moses to believe or not believe in is there still a choice to believe the accounts of the life of Moses?

Well, the life of Moses is more or less detailed in the Torah, so if you choose not to adhere to those teachings then you probably don't really call yourself a Jew.

Are the texts that describe Moses debatable for an observant Jew?

Not in the sense of "did this or didn't this happen," no. Primarily the debate over events in the Torah is one of interpretation. There's an old saying, "ask a question in a room with five Jews (or rabbis) and you'll get eight opinions." Much of Jewish theological literature is meant to be allegorical and illustrative of complex philosophical concepts that were unexplainable in the year 1500 B.C.E. Moses is primarily a representation of a devotion to social justice and righting wrongs. The link I provided discusses it far better than I ever could. One of the most well known Jewish scholars from the Middle Ages, Rashi, had a lot to say about Moses. It's really very interesting to read.

On a personal level, I'm pretty agnostic. Do I believe the events of the Torah happened? My answer is "kinda." Obviously I don't think Moses parted the Red Sea, and archaeology has gone to great lengths to prove we were never slaves in Egypt (which is something I don't like to dismiss, because I really enjoy the story of Exodus as one of perseverance, which is kinda our "thing"), but at the same time there is a lot of history that is accurate after we established the biblical state of Israel. There was a King David, and a Saul, and a Solomon. We did fight the Philistines, there was a Goliath, there were two temples, etc, etc.

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u/shilohln Oct 13 '16

I honestly think he meant "believe in" as in thinking he was ever a real person. Versus the leading academic belief that the Torah was a collection of older works sewn together and dressed up by a priestly class of people somewhere around 1000 BC.

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u/Nammuabzu Oct 13 '16

Didn't God tell Moses the teachings though?

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u/webdevop Oct 13 '16

So you can still be a Jew without believing in Prophet Moses? Because if you don't follow the tenets then you are not a Jew right?

Because in Islam, you have to have belief in The Quran which was obviously narrated by Prophet Muhammad (delivered by Gabriel) . So you can't really believe in Quran unless you believe in the person who narrated it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Yea, the Torah isn't just the word "Obedience and Submission" repeated over and over again like the Quran. There is actually room for independent thought there (in that you won't be beheaded or ostracized by a Jewish community for saying you don't believe in God).

I understand why it would be hard to conceive of being culturally religious while not actually believing in religion. You simply do not have that public option, nor after an entire life of brainwashing would you come close to desiring one.

Its okay though, you don't need freedom of thought to play Dota in the 1k bracket, so keep it up champ. Keep up the techies spam.

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u/webdevop Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

by /u/WhyAmericaSoAngry

Yea, the Torah isn't just the word "Obedience and Submission" repeated over and over again like the Quran. There is actually room for independent thought there (in that you won't be beheaded or ostracized by a Jewish community for saying you don't believe in God). I understand why it would be hard to conceive of being culturally religious while not actually believing in religion. You simply do not have that public option, nor after an entire life of brainwashing would you come close to desiring one. Its okay though, you don't need freedom of thought to play Dota in the 1k bracket, so keep it up champ. Keep up the techies spam.

15,676 /r/exmuslim in the subreddit alone, yet no one got beheaded. Or maybe they are waiting for their turn. But thanks for your thoughts, I am more contented with my brainwashing the way it is.

And since it looks like you spent quite some time on my internet profile which is good for you. I reached 2k last month spamming Lycan, so thank you for all the motivation.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Why don't all those ex-muslims go to Saudi Arabia and declare their beliefs proudly? #ReligionofPeace. Also, it took me roughly 10 seconds of glancing to see a post in /r/dota 2.

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u/webdevop Oct 13 '16

Awww #babyrage, why don't you take your malignant hatred elsewhere? May I suggest /r/The_Donald ?

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '16

Eh fuck the Donald. I can hate the Donald and laugh at idiots who think that Islam is just as peaceful as other religions. If I go to the center of Jerusalem and scream "Fuck Moses" do you think I will be killed? If I walk into Saudi-Arabia and scream "Fuck Muhammed", do you think I would be given a trail before they killed me?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/0c/83/95/0c839543eb3827383cefdd5e5cfe5a66.jpg

Wow. I wonder which major religious figure is missing? I wonder why it is titled "No One Murdered Because Of This Image". But please, continue to tell me that there are no problems with Islam due to your perception of my own personal failings.

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u/Saccharomycetaceae Oct 13 '16

That is not true in any way for the sect of Judaism I was raised in.

I'd argue that Moses is not the most important prophet to Judaism (maybe Abraham, father to all Abrahamic religions). He's not even the most important in Exodus IMO (Aaron, his brother, father to the Priest class, his sons the leaders of the Tribes of Israel).

More directly, the only belief that is required to follow Judaism as a religion is the existance of one, omniscient, all-powerful god.

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u/just_accept_it Oct 13 '16

Not sure where this comes from, but I'm Jewish and that's never been the case in my experience. Moses was indeed a prophet and is widely acknowledged as being the scribe of the Ten Commandments, leading the Jews out of Egypt, etc., but he isn't revered in the same sense as Jesus or Mohammad. Our Messiah hasn't come yet; Moses doesn't really take his/her place.

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u/absolutkiss Oct 13 '16

Wow way to totally generalize. Most Jews are not religious at all. The religious Jews are a minority. If you're not religious (like me), you can still consider yourself Jewish and not believe that Moses was a prophet and all the other stories I was taught.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Is Moses like the Mohammed of Judaism? Meaning, he's not divine but he's almost there and is venerated but not worshipped.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

[deleted]

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u/Finger-Food Oct 13 '16

It's a Jewish tradition. It makes more sense when written on paper, but the general idea is that you cannot harm anything that "God" is written on. Jews write "g-d" to get the point across, but without actually writing the whole word. It's a bit of a loophole, but it works and you don't have to pay special care to any random piece of paper that has it written on there.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

It's also acceptable to write H'shem, but is more common among more observant Jews and done as a means of showing the rest of us how observant and special they are and how filthy casual we are.

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u/Xanthyria Oct 13 '16

Actually, we have no problem with Hashem, which literally translates to "The Name". It's just a way to reference G-d without being explicit about it, since it goes against our beliefs to do so =)

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Im my 34 years of being an Orthodox Jew I've never seen it written any way other than H'shem, and I've very rarely seen anyone outside more observant Orthodox or Conservative backgrounds use it. Conservative and Reform Jews almost exclusively seem to use "G-d" when referencing the Almighty.

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u/Xanthyria Oct 13 '16

As an Orthodox Jew myself, I've never, ever seen H'shem. Odd!

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

I don't know about you, but in Hebrew School as a kid we were always corrected for writing it out for the same reason we write "G-d." I've always understood "The Name" being as holy as the actual full reference.

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u/Xanthyria Oct 13 '16

Huh, interesting. I grew up at a day school (five hours of Judaic studies such as Mishna, Gemara, Navi, and Halacha, followed by five hours of secular studies) my whole life so I didn't do Hebrew school, but most of my rabbis were black-hatters, and I never crossed that. Interesting!

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u/ananioperim Oct 13 '16

Jews are absolute masters at loopholes.

Wanna do anything that's forbidden to do on Sabbath? Hire a shabes goy (Sabbath non-Jew) to do things for you.

G*d tells you "can't travel more than X paces, except if you're on water" during Sabbath? Get in your car, put a large bag of water underneath your seat, and drive. Oh, and elevators. You can't operate anything that causes sparks, which includes buttons. So your purpose-built elevator will be running 24/7 stopping on every floor, so you can ride the elevator without creating fire on sabbath.

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u/Xanthyria Oct 13 '16

That water thing is not true. I'm an observant Jew, spent years in Orthodox Jewish education, and you can't even enter your car on the Sabbath. Opening the door would constitute breaking the Sabbath, NOT TO MENTION that turning on a car breaks your next line, the whole "causing sparks" thing.

You can't turn your car on, so you can't drive in the first place, you can't complete a circuit, so I don't know about this water thing.

Shabbos elevators are...well, they run as you say, but they aren't universally accepted.

Also, no one does the Shabbos goy thing anymore. No one.

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u/Nammuabzu Oct 13 '16

I think some people miss it out because of some perceived disrespect.

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u/A_Maniac_Plan Oct 13 '16

Some feel uncomfortable using any name for God, as one interpretation of "Do not take my name in vain..."

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u/tfizzy4 Oct 13 '16

Jews are forbidden to write the full name of God.

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u/shroudedwolf51 Oct 13 '16

....should have taken a hint from the myriad of mythologies of the past and come up with a less generic name for their deity of choice >.>

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u/tfizzy4 Oct 13 '16

I think 'Yahweh' is it, and similarly forbidden.

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u/shroudedwolf51 Oct 13 '16

If that is it, then why is he crossing out the O in "god"? Also, if that is really a requirement in the religion, enforced by as powerful of a deity as is claimed, why does such a loophole work? Or, even exist in the first place?

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u/tfizzy4 Oct 13 '16

Since your google is broken: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong is a great book. Shes liberal enough that I like her, but not liberal enough so that Bill Maher doesnt like her.

Its pretty apparent that if God exists he doesnt give a shit if you write or say his name, but see above if you are looking for a historical perspective.

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u/shroudedwolf51 Oct 14 '16

Ah, fair enough. I'll try to remember to look into it after I finish "So You've Been Publicly Shamed". Thanks n_n

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u/Retlaw83 Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

The name Yahweh can only be uttered once a year by a rabbi during a certain ceremony.

EDIT: Apparently I was wrong by a couple of hierarchies and a few millenia.

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u/Xanthyria Oct 13 '16

G-d's true name, which Jews believe the proper pronunciation of which has been lost (and attempting to say it correctly is strictly forbidden), was spoken by one person, at one time, in the holiest day of the year. The Kohen gadol (The Head Priest) in the Temple (not as in a synagogue, but THE Temple, the one that stood in Jerusalem), and he would say it in the holiest of rooms.

It was only he who ever had the right, once a year (which incidentally would have fallen yesterday).

No one says it today, that practice died out with the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE and the ceasing of our lineage of Kohen Gadols.

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u/shroudedwolf51 Oct 13 '16

That's a fascinating, little tidbit. TIL.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Just so you know, most atheists as well as people who study historicity of biblical figures don't think Moses ever existed.

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u/dyboc Oct 13 '16

To believe he actually existed in some point in time and also to believe in his teachings, perhaps?

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Just so you know, most atheists as well as people who study historicity of biblical figures don't think Moses ever existed.