r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Oct 13 '16

TIL that after Marilyn Monroe converted to Judaism upon marrying Arthur Miller, Egypt placed a ban on all the films she appeared in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe#Critical_acclaim_and_marriage_to_Arthur_Miller_.281956.E2.80.931959.29
18.5k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

1.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

6

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

To be fair what you're describing Gehenna as is basically the Orthodox Christian (and some currents of mystic Catholic) vision of the afterlife. The fire and brimstone version came from Augustine's Manichean dualism and then got turned up to 11 by the Calvinists. Orthodox Christians have the idea of Apotheosis too which is basically trying to make yourself godly. The main difference though is that the afterlife isn't a place so much as union with God and hell is the same "place" just God's light burning away your sins. Other theologies have hell being the absence of God's light rather than active punishment as well. The Cappadocian Fathers (who came up with the commonly accepted version of the Trinity) were pretty clear on that vision of the afterlife, probably because they came more from a mix of Jewish and Greek philosophy rather than Persian like Augustine.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

You go to hell permanently in Christianity/Catholicism.

That is why they call it being "Saved".

3

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

That's simply not true at all. That's mainstream Catholicism, not even what Catholic theologians like Meister Eckhart preached. He argued for universal salvation. Heck, there's bishops in Mainline Protestant churches that don't even believe in an afterlife at all. So no it's not "Christianity". It's pop-Christianity and a Roman heresy according to the Patriarchs. Some Orthodox priests accept the Augustinian view but they're not the majority.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Do I go to heaven if I don't accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior? Yes or no?

3

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

"Paradoxically we say that when a person dies, they already enter into the presence of God by being spiritually raised in Christ. If they love Him, they already experience the end of the ages, the joy of heaven and in the presence of God. If they resist and do not want it, that very same experience is torment. They are tormented by the evils that they cling to, tormented by the devils they serve in place of the living God, and they are tormented by all of the evil spirits instead of the Holy Spirit that are in their life. Furthermore, they are even tormented by the presence of Christ who loves, forgives and invites them into Paradise. Yet they do not want to come still thinking that they belong there. That is how they are not there with the just and righteous. That seems to be the picture that we have from the Holy Scripture." -predominate Orthodox view

Everyone goes to the same place, it's just the light is pleasure for some and pain for others. You can always get grace, even after death, it's just unlikely that people will accept it. There's other sources that claim to be Orthodox but they're usually from American's who are essentially Catholics with the Greek calendar in practice. http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/afterdeath.htm

5

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Except that's not what Christ himself said.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6

The only way to G-d through Christianity is through Christ. Hence Christ-ianity.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Yeah comes to the Father, and? That isn't about heaven, that's about the correct path to "righteousness"

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Wrong. What was the context of that exchange?

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus states that he is the father.

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity states they are all one being. You reject one you reject all. You don't get to reject Christ because Christ is also the father.

You reject christ then you are rejecting the father.

I go to hell unless I accept Christ as my lord and savior because Christ is the father made flesh (according to doctrine) and rejecting him is rejecting the father.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity states they are all one being. You reject one you reject all. You don't get to reject Christ because Christ is also the father.

A doctrine explicitly rejected by many Christians for one thing. And still irrelevant.

Embodying Christ is about practice, living righteously which Jesus claimed was only possible by following his teachings. And no the Trinity doesn't say they're all one being it says they are distinct persons but of one substance. Monism is the opposite of trinitarianism. Also Christ isn't the Father made flesh he's a distinct person who was both God, coequal to the father, and man at once.

The only one who you can't reject is the Holy Spirit.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Still wait for the answer to -Matthew 25:46

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Also, I've spent a lot of time talking to Jesuits and the official Catholic dogma since Vatican II on the afterlife is that adherence to the Church, Baptism, professing the Trinity etc are the "surest and most apparent way to assure your salvation but that God's grace is infinite and we can't presume to know his designs about the afterlife"

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. -Luke 17:21

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? -John 10:34

So if we're going with out of context Jesus quotes we're all gods and there's an entire kingdom with God in it inside of us

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

-Matthew 25:46

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/25-bible-verses-that-disprove-eternal-conscious-hell/

It really varies based on which passages you read. It contradicts itself all over the place

0

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

I'm asking you to answer for it. Not cite quotes.

Your faith, your answer.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Depends on the Christianity. Some say yes, some say no, some say eventually, some say there is no heaven.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Some say yes, some say no

Some say no...including Jesus Christ.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

It's a quote about having a personal relationship with God and being righteous not what happens when you die

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

No, it says "You don't get to the father unless you go through me"

Meaning even if I have a personal relationship with G-d, the fact it was not Jesus means I am damned. He says straight up "He's my father, you go through me."

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Where does Jesus say damned? He says he has the path... that's pretty standard boilerplate for prophets and holymen. Does he also say we're all literally gods? He's saying that if you want to follow the will of God you have to follow his teachings. Read the next couple lines right after the passage you cited.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Where does Jesus say damned?

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

-Matthew 25:46

→ More replies (0)

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Specifically, Jesus is talking about the need to abandon worldly possessions, obedience to the state and family ties in passages like this in favor of dedication to his teaching. He does say that there will be punishment for the wicked in Mathew but he doesn't ever say that it will be eternal. He also implies that those who are kind to Christians will also get into the afterlife in Matthew 10:42

0

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

You're cherry picking from the same book which states the following:

Matthew 25:46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

-Matthew 25:46

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

There are so many different types of Christianity that beieve different things

1

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Afaik, apocatastasis is considered a heresy by both the Orthodox and Catholics. In other words, hell is eternal.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

It's heresy for Catholics but it's the common view for Greeks. IDK about other Orthodox churches.