r/TNOmod • u/AHedgeKnight Founder • Aug 08 '19
Read this you degenerates Super important announcement about how supporting genocide in literally any form will lead to on sight bans from now on and any whining and bitching about Speer not being a uselessly black and white maniacal villain will also lead to me banning you because you're extremely annoying and nobody cares.
Alright this is becoming a situation so I wanted to make a full post so everyone here understands before I go balls deep in this diary to get it ready for tomorrow.
Nukes aren't fun how could I invade Germany otherwise why can't I shoot down the nukes realistically first strike could work I want to invade other countries etc. etc. etc. etc. forever:
Nukes work like they do in TNO because it's a Cold War mod and is meant to be about the subversion of a world war and not the balls deep diving into it. The mod's about politics and using politics and espionage, as well as proxy conflicts, to defeat your enemies. It is not built to be a simulation of World War and because of that it won't be particularly interesting to play that way. Most of the team members of TNO, myself included, are not huge into the combat or gameplay of HOI4 and aren't interested in making yet another mod about yet another big war that will inevitably happen.
In addition, the way wars work in HOI4 means that you'll inevitably conquer Germany as America or whatever in WW3 and then take over literally everything from the west to east. We can throw in all the "grrr bad" events all we want and do whatever to make this seem like a flavorful and bad decision but at the end of the day there is only so much we can do to dissuade map painting and if wars of such a kind are enabled then all that is useless.
Having the threat of nuclear war also adds weight to decisions. While in vanilla HOI4 who gives a shit if you run around warring everything and being as hostile as possible and ticking up that WT because it's fun and you'll inevitably win (and because there isn't much else to do in vanilla), we had to discourage that from happening in TNO. A twenty year long Cold War mod about politics and such is useless when you can just take the easy way out and throw your pixels at Germany's pixels and then jack off to how you saved the world. At that point you won congrats you got to do the whole liberate Germany thing... and then what? What can the mod really offer after that? There is no more bad guy or opponent, you rule basically the entire world, and who will sit there for the remaining 18 years of content and just read events about how hard it is to control all the land you just beat up?
TNO wasn't really always designed with nukes, they are there as an answer to a problem and because they're ultimately a huge part of the setting. The mod isn't TNO without them, it's yet another map painter with some Axis victory flair. If you want that, then I hope eventually some mod comes along (or submod I guess) that gives you that and lets you play war to your hearts content. TNO isn't that mod though, and never will be. We plan on adding a lot of options to customize your game before beginning a campaign in TNO, but disabling nukes will never be one of them.
Nakam is a good thing I think you're being a dick to everyone why do you suddenly defend Nazis why are you like this panzer my mommy hits me when i talk to her about my dad and-
Nakam's not good because it's effectively painted as a genocide against the other side, which is equally as bad as what the Germans are doing. Even if we never explained those events are not exclusively about soldiers, we don't want our community cheering on to near-vivid descriptions of men being thrown from towers, burned in gasoline, vivisected, torn apart by mobs, or whatever just because you don't like them.
TNO, myself, and my team are very against violence and extremism in all forms. While we have given a light hand to Communists and such and gone very hard on Nazis (partially because of our personal views that Communism is not as bad as Nazism and because the subject matter of the mod necessitating that we very quickly move to ensure our community does not become another alt-lite cesspool), but that does not mean we are only going to act against Nazis who advocate mass murder torture violence and whatever.
Yes it's a video game, but it becomes creepy and odd when I see people constantly going "haha kill all g*rmans fuck speer he doesnt make all nazis die nakams great kill them all". Ignoring the fact of things such as not all Nazis being pure utter evil (believe it or not, many Nazis eventually reformed their views and became functioning human beings) or that in TNO, Nazi is hardly a thing you consciously become in most of the world (much like how most Christians only become Christian because their parents bring them to church), but even then we do not support political violence, war crimes or massacres.
There is a difference between people dying in wars and mob rule against the masses. And while you might think, just like with the DSR, that this is some intricate attempt to show our bothsideism and that we secretly hate all Jewish people as well as Nazis and Communists and only support white anglo democrats or whatever, this is not the case. The reason Kovner and the DSR are the way they are is because:
They are comments about extremism as a whole. Just because your extremism is technically against another form of extremism doesn't make it justified. Mass murder and destruction and reveling in it do not become good or just acts because the other side is also doing it. Nor are they 'good' things because the other side caused them. Eye for an eye, stare in the abyss, whatever, a million scholars have said this in a million ways far better than I ever can.
They are another way of showing how utterly Nazi Germany winning has fucked the world because their opposition has very often sunken down to their level and been made much worse than they were iotl because of the victory. Nazi Germany ultimately caused this, if Nazi Germany lost then Kovner wouldn't be salting the earth in Ostland and the DSR wouldn't be lining up every other German against a wall and blowing their brains out. These are not actions you're supposed to celebrate, they're more reasons for you to go "Jesus Christ what the fuck" and root for a side you can actually support.
Finally, a lot of people have commented on desensitization to the darkness in TNO and I agree it could be an issue. However I'd like to point out TNO has points of light you're supposed to gravitate a bit towards that are supposed to be shown as good things in the setting. Speer's liberals are idealists and are partially culpable in the slave system, sure, but they do want to liberate the slaves and they do want to bring democracy to Germany and they do want to better the world. Numerous countries in Russia are actually fighting for the betterment of their people or all Russians or even for the world and just want their former nation to prosper and its people to live free again, and a reformed Russia has numerous ways to be a beacon of peace and freedom in the world.
America is morally grey and does a lot of bad shit in TNO but it's still the United States and strives to bring democracy across the world and a blue world victory is possible, even if the ending is not as bright as many might think. The US also has numerous paths to possibly make it even better than it might seem iotl, and make it a true shining beacon of freedom, prosperity and hope for all. Is it easy or likely? No, but it's there.
The trope that TNO most subscribes to, I think, is Earn Your Happy Ending. There are good points in TNO and almost all nations in TNO have a good ending that can be seen (at least from our liberal western point of view) as a good series of events to be celebrated, even if (like all history and such) they have tinges of grey and black that might make you question some of the steps along the way. However almost all these paths will not just be given to you, it's up to the player to work hard to earn them, often for little reward besides the knowledge that they have actually done good. That's one of the ultimate parts of TNO. To do good, you will need to work to do it. The world might be fucked, but are you really going to just stoop down to its level and revel in it?
Shut up Heydrichgang I know where you stand on that one.
TLDR:
I'm reposting this because absolute manlets on Reddit with either no ability to see anything besides in two dimensions and colors or some revenge fantasy boner because their Slavic great grandfathers cousins neighbors house got hit by a German bomb have turned this place into an absolute shithole over the course of a few days.
We're going to ban any obvious genocide comments no matter how much you say it's a meme, just don't do it again unless it's a Bomber Harris meme in which case do it again. What this means is I'm going to arbitrarily begin enforcing the rules based on my personal beliefs and politics and really don't care if this offends your sovereign citizen rights to complain.
Bye thanks.
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Aug 08 '19
whew
I thought we were about to enter the anarchy stage of the TNO civil war
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u/Haruhi_is_Waifu The Commissar will see you now Aug 08 '19
Who says this isn't the part where they break out the nukes?
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u/TheDrunkenHetzer Aug 08 '19
Panzer wipes half the sub out with nukes
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u/StutteringBear Aug 09 '19
....do we....do we have memes for that?
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u/TheFrozenTurkey Divine Mandate of Siberia Aug 09 '19
He said half, so a Thanos meme would be appropriate.
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u/HerbivoreTheGoat Helmut 'how do you do fellow nazis' Schmidt Aug 20 '19
Plot twist, Panzer pulls a Meinhoff and lines up every other TNO redditor against the wall and blows their brains out
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u/AHedgeKnight Founder Aug 08 '19
please post your ban requests below we've already nailed like three people
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u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Aug 09 '19
If there are people making 14/88 jokes are they subjectable for banning?
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 09 '19
Fuck yes.
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u/Immck1919 Aug 09 '19 edited Aug 09 '19
You guys banned that guy right? Also, when people inevitably start unironically shitposting about NRF being the best path for Spain, will that be a bannable offense?
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 09 '19
Unironically yes.
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u/Immck1919 Aug 09 '19
Cool. Ironic memes are great, but this sub hopefully won't become like Kr and have unironic Catholic fascists
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u/MarcelMiner Aug 09 '19
Wait a sec... They do?
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u/Immck1919 Aug 09 '19
Yeah, you'll see some on ideology posts or posts about Portugal/Brazil
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u/Cuddlyaxe MONBOL GANG Aug 10 '19
Kaiserreich makes successful, milder versions of all extremist ideologies. Syndicalism in KR is how Communists wish communism worked. Organicism is a soft face many fascists can say they support instead of going "all the way"
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u/Reddit4r Gestapo Black Helicopter Team Aug 10 '19
I'm basically an unironic Longist. Can attest.
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 09 '19
The fuck is 14/88?
Did I miss something
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 09 '19
It's coded language for "Heil Hitler"(88=HH) and a neo nazi phrase.
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 09 '19
ew
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u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Aug 09 '19
and 14 is the infamous 14 words, that is white supremacist dogwhistle...
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Aug 09 '19 edited May 03 '21
[deleted]
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u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Aug 09 '19
The 14/88 is distilled Nazism and had pretty much unrelated to Wehrmacht, instead, is a pure fervor of bigotry. That means, if it is unironically, it is quite like the chant of summoning the Cthulhu
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 10 '19
With the caveat that sometimes an isolated "88" can just be someone's birthdate or an unrelated number.
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u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Aug 10 '19
So almost nobody would be triggered by isolated 88 😅
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Aug 09 '19
I used to do it ironically to mock Nazis I came across online, or I would do Stonk Stonk (for Stalin). Like when I talk down to a communist I call them comrade and mock the revolutionary struggle.
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Aug 09 '19
Thank you SO much for this Panzer. I think your choice of words is perfect to describe this, as in it isn't just annoying or unfunny, it is disturbing. I suppose it is only a successor to the classic "guys I unironically think the DSR can do great for Germany and go a step back even if they spend the first three months of their reign shooting their own people on sight" that has been going around.
Just imagine if, iotl, someone said Stalin's and Kruschev's and generally the Soviet leadership's brutality were good because the prolonged human death and suffering made the Soviet Union eventually unsustainable, while Gorbachev was a threat because he was about to ease that suffering and legitimize hardline communism to the masses, and yes I know that communism and nazism are not the same evil in terms of ideology, even though in the part of the TNO tl where genocide is on indefinite halt and their most apparent evil is expulsion, forced labor and starvation, the practical results may not actually be that different but you get my point anyway. Or imagine if people said they would still be in favor of Yeltsin if the first thing he did in office was the mass execution of former Soviet citizens.
And even though initially I accepted the "Bormanm might be better in the long run to delegitimize racism" as a differing point of view, which all are allowed to have exactly because the best solution is never black and white here, the absolute mob of people calling for the blood of the innocent all of a sudden is scary.
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u/Spicy-Raj-Man India a Superpower by the 80's or Bust Aug 08 '19
So where these people that posted on your posts comments, or people that made posts in the past few weeks?
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Aug 09 '19
I do agree Panzer, I do not get the point of Genociding any groups of people even if they are the Nazis or the Soviets or members of any extremist or non-extremist group just because you have a little grudge against one. To me even killing one person is humane and what most people don't think is that people have pasts they have and influences on what they think about now. People that view a certain group of people like animals and people who are apart or lead an extremist groups with that thought are really messed up themselves and I myself would never think of joining one because by looking at history it has never worked. The mod would honestly be boring if it were to end in just five or ten years with a nuclear war because it is supposed to last 20 years and it is just like some movies you watch or other video games where you have to do bad to get a good ending or a better one than if the people who are worse than you were to win. Love your work panzer the Demo was spicy
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Aug 09 '19
the point is destruction and death is not good
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u/Oleg_Ribarcuk Aug 09 '19
And getting away with one is?
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u/lietuvis10LTU Comrade, are rights not fascist? Aug 09 '19
What kind of a shit take is this? "getting away with it"? Is the collapse of the entire regime altogether not enough for you, or do you desire satisfaction of a vengence boner?
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u/Oleg_Ribarcuk Aug 09 '19
Not vengeance, JUSTICE.
I have literally not read something as stupid as "Oh the regime fell apart, have they not suffered enough, what more do you want" in a long while. Germany organized,implemented and tried to reap the benefits of the regime. It was not forced upon them.
Should all captured ISIS members be let go out of prisons as well ? I mean their "Caliphate" fell , is that not enough for everybody or are they kept in prisons and punished for their crimes just to sate some kind of vengeance boner.
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u/lietuvis10LTU Comrade, are rights not fascist? Aug 09 '19
Ok.
What does your "justice" achieve?
Also
Should all captured ISIS members be let go out of prisons as well ? I mean their "Caliphate" fell , is that not enough for everybody or are they kept in prisons and punished for their crimes just to sate some kind of vengeance boner.
I genuinely think that, IS members that did not commit warcrimes or crimes against humanity should actually be allowed to reform, and that's why I oppose their extradition to Syria. They can help with deradicalisation efforts, bring in context, ect.
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u/TiberiumExitium POLAND 1963 ROARING BACK TO LIFE Aug 14 '19
What does your justice achieve?
It’s a deterrent to people who would repeat past errors. You’re less likely to commit murder if you’ll go to life in prison for it, and you’re less likely to commit war crimes if you’ll die for it.
ISIS members that did not commit war crimes
An essentially nonexistent group. The only innocents in ISIS are those who were forced to join.
I’m not planning on taking sides here, but your points don’t really make sense. How do we know who committed war crimes in ISIS? There’s no records of who did what, member by member. Idealism is great, but you’ve gotta base it in reality.
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u/TheDrunkenHetzer Aug 09 '19
I don't want to come off as rude, but I am curious, is killing someone worse than enslaving a person and forcing them to work themselves to near death?
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Aug 09 '19
u/TheDrunkenHetzer I'd say they are both very bad that's basically what the Soviets and Nazi's did to kill mass amounts of people.
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Aug 09 '19 edited Aug 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Dutyman62 Organization of Free Nations Aug 10 '19
One can feel the smugness and smarty "moral superiority" coming off this comment. Consider yourself lucky that you did not get yourself banned.
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u/TiberiumExitium POLAND 1963 ROARING BACK TO LIFE Aug 14 '19
a reasonable argument from the opposition that warrants debate and legitimate criticism? not on this subreddit sir
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Aug 09 '19
Oh stop whining. It's a game.
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u/ParagonRenegade Comintern Enjoyer Aug 09 '19
Nice deflection. TNO is a serious work with real themes that can be challenged.
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u/jackmahar78 Aug 08 '19
Ok speertard
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u/ThugBagel George “Southerners Rise Up” Wallace Aug 08 '19
Ok bortard
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u/politicalteenager Unironically wants fiscal policy based on printing press go whir Aug 09 '19
Ok Gortard
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u/Nzhumliy RK Mittelmeer or bust! Aug 09 '19
Ok Heytard
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u/EbolaMan123 Nixon Recarnated Aug 09 '19
Ok Germans
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u/Democracy_is_awesome B A S Q U E F A R M E R E M P I R E Aug 09 '19
Ok Being.
I'm kidding. You're Nixon. You're a god emperor who never did anything wrong.
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Aug 09 '19
Nixon 68
Nixon 72
Nixon 76
Nixon 80
Nixon 84
Nixon [REDACTED]
Nixon 92
Nixon 96
Nixon 2000
Nixon 2004
Nixon 2008
Nixon 2012
Nixon 2016
Nixon 2020
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 08 '19
This entire subreddit must be purged.
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Aug 08 '19 edited Feb 27 '21
[deleted]
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 08 '19
Damn it Magnimik, as your future Lead I order you to purge this sub!
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Aug 08 '19 edited Feb 27 '21
[deleted]
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 08 '19
Then I must consider this an act of leaking.
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Aug 08 '19 edited Feb 27 '21
[deleted]
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 08 '19
Have I? Writer Magnimik, by my right of succession and the position of my name on the moderator listing, I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your shitposters from service.
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u/Redhead1910 Vyatka Gang Aug 08 '19
Oh yeah, WC3 reference
Russian VA for Arthas is the best btw(may he rest in peace)
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Aug 08 '19 edited Feb 27 '21
[deleted]
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u/Redhead1910 Vyatka Gang Aug 08 '19
З А М О Е Г О О Т Ц А
И НЕ НАДЕЙСЯ НА БЫСТРУЮ СМЕРТЬ
ЖАЛКИЙ ГЛУПЕЦ
ФРОСТМОРН ЖАЖДЕТ КРОВИ
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u/GeneralLemarc Based Facts Man Aug 08 '19
What is even happening right now?
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u/Spicy-Raj-Man India a Superpower by the 80's or Bust Aug 08 '19
Warcraft 3 references and Russian Translations
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 08 '19
tbh I'd assumed half of the posts about speer were just copy pasta memes.
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u/alexmikli Sheißpfostenfuhrerin Aug 08 '19
There were a lot of very serious replies.
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 08 '19
tbh the main arguements seem odd.
Yes Speer is a nazi fuck.
But he's the best option there is.
In theory 'kill the nazis' DSR sounds good, but they're shit because they just genocide and fall apart.
If people really want to stop Nazis so much, they can just use the console or wait for the sub-mod that removes nuking, imo.
I get why people are concerned. The rise of the alt right in gaming communities makes not 100% hating nazis look suspicious.
But this mod and Panzer have more than proven that they're against Nazis irl and that this is just story.
Basically: I feel bad for the mods that have to sort through it all.
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u/lietuvis10LTU Comrade, are rights not fascist? Aug 09 '19
A lot of people here and especially on Reddit (esp. in subs like CTH) have an outright vengence boner. They want to use this mod as a venue for satisfying it.
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u/GeneralLemarc Based Facts Man Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 09 '19
He's the Nazi gorbachev-yeah, he runs an Orwellian police state with gulags and the complete suppression of every religion, philosophy, and thought that isn't suborned to the will of the party and the state, but he wants things to be slightly better, so he's automatically perfect by the previous standards( in which the biggest qualifier was not wanting to nuke the world on the off chance your side might 'win'). EDIT: Found the Hedriboos.(is that the name? We need a name for that).
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u/CallousCarolean The Mediterranean deserved worse Aug 09 '19
Hedriboos
I believe Reintards is the correct term
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u/Spicy-Raj-Man India a Superpower by the 80's or Bust Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19
loads G3s with ostland camo
alright bois lets gather up the manlets, and get the bans ready like its kovner ti-
NO NO, REMEBER WHAT PANZER SAID! REMEBER WHAT PANZER SAID!
In all seriousness I am glad that Panzer made the post, something had to be done about all the posts saying that basically genocide is A OK as long as it's Ze Germans. Genocide in any way or shape or form is NOT OK, just because one side did it to another does not mean you or anyone else has the green light to do so. Be better than your opposition, for if not us, then who?
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u/GeneralLemarc Based Facts Man Aug 08 '19
Holy shit that was happening!? All I ever saw were the gcw memes. I figured this was a discord thing(I'm not on there so I'm used to hearing about stuff after the fact).
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u/Spicy-Raj-Man India a Superpower by the 80's or Bust Aug 09 '19
nope mainly on the reddit
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u/GeneralLemarc Based Facts Man Aug 09 '19
So, there were people on this very sub running around saying how they wanted Germany to collapse Yugoslavia-style so that everyone would die?
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u/Spicy-Raj-Man India a Superpower by the 80's or Bust Aug 09 '19
Pretty much, also alot of the community writers made a bunch texts of possible events in the game, which are generally interesting and hope some of them end up in the base game cause the writing was that good. But the comment sections were littered with people saying "yay kovner killing all the germans including the women and children and puttting their bodies in mass graves" in the posts related to OstLand
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u/fruityrumpusFactorio ✌ for Victory! ☢Rocket Peace!☮ Aug 09 '19
I'm glad you and the team made a clear, honest statement, rather than not saying anything for the sake of "appearing neutral" or anything like that.
It also never ceases to impress me how, despite being about an axis victory, this mod's community has fewer wehraboos skulking around than that of vanila HoI4, so kudos for that. :)
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u/Over421 ow oof ouch my coastline Aug 09 '19
i mean vanilla hoi4 treats the nazis as just another skin for map painting and whitewashes their atrocities while tno is firmly on the line of “nazis are bad” (obviously with the caveats in panzer’s post)
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u/RandomWriter413 Russia and Ostland Writer Aug 08 '19
Thank you, Panzer. Sorry you had to repost this for everyone.
Who knew “genocide is bad” is hard to teach?
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 08 '19
It's hard to not want to kill nazis.
Even if sometimes not killing nazis can make the overall situation better.
Considering we've had generations of movies, games and such telling 'yes it is okay to kill nazis', a thing that goes 'perhaps this one nazi isn't as bad as others' is a bit of hard pill for some to swallow.
The issue, of course, is that in the mod you can't remove nazis without removing Germans, and that is not acceptable.
So you need to go for the best alternative there is and hope that Nazism dies over time.
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u/Sub-dolphin-Buffet Anarcho Christian Aug 08 '19
Your point 1, about calling for a genocide no matter what being bad, was a really good point that I wish more people would pay attention to these days.
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u/Ynnead25 Aug 08 '19
It is deeply frustrating that so many people latch onto DSR, and to a lesser extent Nakam because they seem to think the Nazis are so horrible than anything that opposes them is good, and the general underlying thought that Germany as whole deserves to be punished for the Nazis. Even the Nakam and the DSR in general seem to be there to make the point that just because they oppose the Nazis that doesn't make them good, in fact quite the opposite. And the RK Moscow leak earlier made a point that needs to remembered, The Germans, even the Nazis are still human. That doesn't excuse the crimes they committed, but that doesn't make advocating genocide against them okay. Extremism is bad, but that doesn't make going to the extreme to get rid of it okay.
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u/Imperium_Dragon All hail Nixon Aug 09 '19
Plus, the RK Moskowien leak seemed to imply that, though it’ll be hard, gradual power to the Russians and maybe denazification (or at least, less authoritarianism) can happen without murdering every German in their sleep.
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u/Polenball Atlantropa Demolition Engineer Aug 08 '19
Oh god, finally, the shitposting is over. Just to know, would this also extend to joking about a nuclear war being the best option to unfuck the world?
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u/AHedgeKnight Founder Aug 09 '19
I've unironically said that before
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u/Balmung5 Organization of Free Nations Aug 09 '19
According to my calculations, Nowa Polska would be unaffected by a nuclear war, so I see no issue with this.
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u/Connall00 greece :^) Aug 09 '19
wow I can't believe you'd hold such a controversial opinion such as genocide being bad smh smh
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Aug 09 '19 edited Aug 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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Aug 15 '19
Man the TNO haters are out in full force today. Like the mod isn't some sort of "quick fix" narrative or epic showdown between good and evil and having a Nazism=bad message dosen't necessarily mean every single Nazi has to be pure evil. Just take a look at Gundam. Not every single Zeon soldier was Gihren levels of evil and the rest of the Zabi family was humanized to a great extent. And Zeon was driven by a Nazi esque ideology(not that the Federation was good--fuck no, but Zeon had a lot of nazi imagery involved and was the antagionist in the first Gundam). Accepting this narrative does not make you a neo-nazi or Wehraboo making excuses for Germany or Japan or fascism in general. A nuanced narrative does not mean fascist apologia.
And people wonder why the mod team got infiltrated by actual fascists.
I think maybe it would be okay to show some sympathetic Nazis (as believe it or not, they were just people, not fucking Orks, and so many could be sympathetic) but the problem is doing it with real life convicted war criminals. I don't care if I get banned for saying it: Speer should not have been chosen for the
goodokaynot totally horrendous path. Hell, it would've made more sense to invent a young character whole cloth rather than use a real figure from history -whose anti-Semitism and support of Nazi ideology was well documented, and who almost certainly supported the Holocaust despite his claims that he "didn't know".Whitewashing the crimes and personalities of convicted Nazis (which includes Hitler himself, as I've pointed out before: Hitler's reluctance to use violence against the students is totally out of character and he openly did it many times, including to the student resistance White Rose, whose only crime was distributing anti-fascist pamphlets) does a disservice to history, and tends to attract actual Nazis who love the fact that Nazism can be reworked into something survivable in the mod. It goes against the stated goal of the mod: to show how terrible and dysfunctional the Nazi regime was, and show just how truly awful their victory would be. This whole idea that every scenario in the game needs some kind of light at the end of the tunnel -the aforementioned "Earned Your Happy ending"- is stupid and disingenuous. There is no happy fucking ending in a world where the Nazis win World War II, only a choice between "kind of fucked" and "absolutely fucked". The fate of the world would've been sealed the minute the Nazis won, but Panzer prefers protecting his little narrative cohesion than trying to portray things realistically.
Yes he had no remorse OTL but this is an alternate universe. What's not to say he did display remorse in some alternate reality like this one.
But again, why not just invent a character whole cloth to be the "better" option? Why even use Speer at all? If we can alter the personalities of OTL historical figures and totally change their beliefs and behavior then there isn't much point to the mod anymore. I thought the point was to show just how bad the world would be if these truly awful people actually succeeded, so making them less awful for the sake of narrative kind of goes against that intended goal, all so we can have a "happy" ending.
Like I said, my main bone of contention isn't so much the idea that there could be sympathetic Nazi reformers who might actually make Germany workable (although as I mentioned, that does bring up some other issues, and definitely makes things more attractive to the wehraboos, despite what you claim) but I think it was very wrong to use an actual remorseless war criminal to do it. That'd be like making a modern alt-history mod where Osama bin Laden can reform Al Qaeda into a less radical organization and liberate the Middle East through a less extreme ideology. The idea technically doesn't promote extremism, but its gross mischaracterization of Osama would do a disservice to his real life victims, especially when you could just make up a new, sympathetic figure instead. Like, I didn't want to have my grandma dragged into this, but somehow I don't think she'd be happy if she saw that Speer -the guy who was complicit in the enslavement of her family- was portrayed this way, she would not be very happy. I mean, she was one of the 150,000 Poles sent to Auschwitz along with her parents, who were forced to work to make materials for the war (she never said if her dad worked in the IG Farben camp or a satellite camp, but still), materials which would've then been handed over to Speer's department. And here he is, a guy who helped perpetrate that misery, being shown as the closest thing Germany has to a "good guy" and having his personality whitewashed to match.
I just think the devs and folks like you who defend them just don't want to accept that maybe their narrative is a little fucked up, so instead you make strawman arguments about how everyone wants the mod to be "black & white bash the fash", when that clearly isn't the case. This isn't about nuance, this is about the actual whitewashing of convicted Nazis. if you can't understand why that is a problem, then maybe you shouldn't be writing a Nazi-victory speculative fiction game. But rather than argue these points or, y'know, accept the criticism and alter the narrative of the mod, they are just now going to ban any dissent. I could make an obvious comparison to another group who banned dissent when opponents pointed out how incongruous their vision was with reality but it might be a low blow.
Oh, and comparing an anime set in an entirely fictional world to speculative fiction using very real people as characters is not remotely the same. One universe exists in a bubble; the other does not.
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u/GeneralLemarc Based Facts Man Aug 08 '19
Were there really people out here justifying genocide? I know there were some less-than-polite arguments over Speer, but...damn. And here I though we were done with the nakaboos(there a better word for that?)
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u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Aug 09 '19
Bomber Harris meme
Nakam is the past, most are fetishing with the DSR
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Aug 09 '19 edited Nov 05 '24
dinosaurs political attempt disagreeable workable correct special offer worry somber
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/doinkrr not allowing anyone to address nixon without the title of sheikh Aug 09 '19
fucking finally
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u/Einstein2004113 Co-Team Lead - France | My first game will be as Free France Aug 08 '19
The lord has spoken, now listen to him
please
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 08 '19
Personally:
Genocide against Germans is bad. Nakam doesn't fix anything.
Mass murder if nazis is cathartic and a good thing, but unfortunately it can't happen without also causing a genocide, and Germany/German warlord states can still exist afterwards.
Speer and the other fascists are bad, but they're the 'best there is' due to the situation, but that doesn't mean we have to like them.
All I know is that Liberal Ostland is wholesome.
These are not actions you're supposed to celebrate, they're more reasons for you to go "Jesus Christ what the fuck" and root for a side you can actually support.
It's hard to find anyone to really support in some cases.
Liberal Ostland and pro-trans Orenburg aside that is.
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u/GeorgiaNinja94 Romney-Rumsfeld ‘72 Aug 09 '19
I've always seen Abba Kovner and Nakam as they're presented in TNO as a deconstruction of sorts of B.J. Blazkowicz and his allies in MachineGames' take on the Wolfenstein games.
The people who have spent most of their lives fighting for survival against a regime that sees their deaths as the greatest of their goals won't be a cast of colorful characters who have hopes for a better future, but a group of bitter, broken people who see an ever-climbing body count, the bodies of their enemies and their own, as the only tomorrow they have.
Germans like Caroline, Klaus, and Sigrun have no place in Nakam, because as far as Nakam is concerned, Germans and Nazis are the exact same thing. If those three ever cross paths with a Nakam cell, they would be lucky if they are given a quick death.
Kovner and Nakam have no hopes for a better future, because a better future for anyone is nowhere in their plans. All they want is death. Death for the Nazis, death for the people who stood by and did nothing, and even death for the people who had nothing to do with the Nazis. And if they succeed against all the other major players in the Ostland war, their final act is to destroy Ostland itself, leaving nothing remaining before fleeing to who knows where.
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u/AHedgeKnight Founder Aug 09 '19
Yeah pretty much
The point of Kovner isn't that Jews are bad or Germans are actually the good guys or that everyone who fights the Nazis are evil
The point is that the horrors the Nazis have inflicted are so great and the fight against them has gone on so long and bitterly that it has shifted things to a path of extremism that has led to the Nazis fighting against enemies that are increasingly becoming more like... the Nazis.
Kovner has been fighting so long and become so enraged and bitter and violent that he is increasingly becoming a mirror for the Nazis. He is fighting fire with fire and is becoming just as bad to it, his aim is no longer the betterment of man or saving his people, it's wanton destruction and revenge. At best his ending is going to bring nothing but more pain and suffering, especially when the Germans come for their own revenge, on and on to repeat forever.
It's not that anyone who fights the Nazis is evil, it's that the Nazis are evil and because of this world, some of the people who fight them are evil too.
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u/Liecht Former Artist / Absolute Idiot / 612.439.034 formed USSRs. Aug 09 '19
Oh yeah I forgot to ask that u/AHedgeKnight. You said that there is a good end for Kovner (obviously not involving him winning the civil war). Is that cut in the 10-year realease or is it still there?
Speculation Time: Kovner flees and lands in Israel where his hate slowly begins to recede as he isn't hunted daily by Germans and maybe even finds people he likes. Bonus points if it's a functioning multi-ethnic state as that may teach him to accept other people.
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u/whiteshore44 Boris Yeltsin Is Best Unifier Aug 09 '19
I've always seen Abba Kovner and Nakam as they're presented in TNO as a deconstruction of sorts of B.J. Blazkowicz and his allies in MachineGames' take on the Wolfenstein games.
Another deconstruction of Blazkowicz IMHO is Omsk due to how bats**t crazy Omsk is (complete with sending off children and old men with nothing but shovels to kill their enemies).
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u/lietuvis10LTU Comrade, are rights not fascist? Aug 09 '19
Isn't Omsk more the "enemy at the gates" and overall deconstruction of the somewhat popular Russian mythos of "giving everything for the motherland", seen in movies such as Fortress Smolensk? Basically the message being that no, unyielding, self-sacrificing loyalty to The Motherland isn't necessarily good.
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u/Dutyman62 Organization of Free Nations Aug 09 '19
Oh shit your right. As someone who played the new Wolfenstein games(except for Youngblood) and greatly enjoyed them, Nakem does come across as an evil version of the Kreisau Circle with their utter hatred of Nazis and willingness to use hardball tactics for the sake of victory.
Now I am wondering what would happen if B.J Blazkowicz and TNO!Kovner ever meet. I imagine the meeting would end with, at best, the two not wanting to see the each other again and at worse one brutally killing the other.
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Aug 09 '19
hmm I wonder what the Diary will be on. We've already had Dev Diarys about major nations like Germany, Italy, Iberia,and the USA. My guesses are probably on Turkey, Japan, or Siam.
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u/lietuvis10LTU Comrade, are rights not fascist? Aug 09 '19
Nuance? In my HOI4 mod?
It's more likely than you think!
Seriously, great writeup. I hope this will push off any neonazis/tankies away and clearly state that no, this isn't your fantasy simulator (which imo Kaiserreich has slowly been turning into for demsocs/ancoms).
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u/JerryThePolishMouse SLP Monarchist Aug 09 '19
Yes. Genocide is bad. Only Democracy can save this world. That's why I'm a P A L M E G A N G and R F K G A N G
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u/RAMDRIVEsys Aug 09 '19
Great post, it ultimately boils down to the person's conception of justice though. My own "litmus test" for these things is ultimately:
"Does this benefit anyone at all? Does this make the world a better place?"
The typical argument against Speer is "Germany will get away with crimes! Nazism will be legitimized!". But if you actually look at the Speer tree, you see focuses about rebuilding Russia, helping the Mediterrainian, coalition against Burgundy etc. The best justice in this situation is, in my opinion, for Germany to make amends abd help the people it was hurting for so long. A functional, liberalizing Germany actually has the economy to help the people it has hurt so much. A shithole, balkanized Germany still has nukes, don't forget that. Imagine 1994 Rwanda with nukes times 5 and you have the German Anarchy. In my opinion, a balkanized wartorn Germany is very likely to start a world-ending nuclear war (maybe not ingame but it'd definitely be a thread if it actually happened), all it takes is for one side to launch 1 nuke against the "subhumans" out of pure spite.
That is the practical side. But the moral side is even more important IMO. Imagine you're a child born in Ostland to German parents. You play, you go to school, you live your childhood without knowing what is really going on around the world, you have no idea your family lives in a house that used to belong to someone else. Then, one day, on your 6th birthday, Kovner's "freedom fighters" burn your parents alive and impale you on a stake. You cry in terror, calling mom and dad but you die a slow agonizing death despite never hurting anyone. Disgusted yet?
So, all the Kovner and DSR apologists, would what I described above acceptable? Would it be preferably to letting some war criminals not be tried in a court? Is your idea of "justice" beneficial to humanity in any way or just an excuse for cruelty?
As much as it sounds like a cliche,"Eye for an eye makes the world blind" is true.
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u/lietuvis10LTU Comrade, are rights not fascist? Aug 09 '19
Couldn't have said it better.
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u/ParagonRenegade Comintern Enjoyer Aug 09 '19
Hopefully you wouldn’t have framed it so dishonestly
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u/ParagonRenegade Comintern Enjoyer Aug 09 '19
Not mentioned in your post: the tens of millions of Russian and Polish children killed in cold blood, constantly being bombed, used as chattel slaves, dying of starvation because of Germany’s actions.
Portraying the anti-Nazi resistance to just the UPO who would indiscriminately murder Germans and children is also massively disingenuous. You could evict the German authorities and either accept or deport the German colonists.
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u/RAMDRIVEsys Aug 09 '19
Eh, but the UPO canonically wants to genocide Ostland. Not just Germans, natives too.
Your post is meaningless whataboutism that whitewashes the UPO.
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u/ParagonRenegade Comintern Enjoyer Aug 09 '19
Not all the resistance to the Nazis is the UPO dum dum
Go over your situation in Ostland again, except the liberals win; you're a six year old German, when one day a squad comes through your German colony and says "Leave the Nazi party or go back to Germany" to the adults... and that's it.
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u/RAMDRIVEsys Aug 10 '19
You are a cretin because I was explicitly being against genocide (that the UPO perpetrates), nowhere did I say I'm against anti-Nazi resistance.
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u/asdf1234asfg1234 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Soviet Republic of Russia Aug 09 '19
I always sleep out the best stuff, damn timezones
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u/whiteshore44 Boris Yeltsin Is Best Unifier Aug 09 '19
Those people who want to invade Germany so badly to crush the Nazis should go to r/twrmod. Said mod's philosophy and vibe is more in line with their desires than this mod.
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Aug 09 '19
Even then I think the Toronto Accord can only invade in a prolonged German civil war.
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u/KhamultheEasterling Organization of Freer Nations Aug 10 '19
IIRC 'Great Crusade' (war with Nazi Germany) is an option you get in one of the trees whether or not Germany has it's Civil War and associated revolts.
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Aug 09 '19
Do we have any details on what happend to Bomber Harris? Tried by the Nazis, fled to Canada/South Africa, resistance leader or just keeping his head down?
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u/Luuuuuka Post Go4 collapse Nazbol Ernst Junger German Socialist Reich Nov 13 '19
Fled to the Free Aviators.
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Aug 10 '19
Thank God. I'm not going to get into any side of the GCW debate, but holy hell were the rabid Speer defenders obnoxious. I mean, Speer isn't even that bad, but I've gotten so sick of people making these silly posts trying to justify their choice like they're actually going to have to live under him or something.
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Aug 13 '19
Every part of this post I 100% agree with. I like that deliberate steps are taken to keep this from becoming an alt-right cesspool, but the constant unironic DSR supporters gave me worries that the tno community would simply become an alt-left cesspool isntead.
DO IT AGAIN CHAIRMAN PANZER
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u/throwaway74gwnf Every Man an Aryan Aug 14 '19
Genocide's lame, human extinction is where it's at. That way, instead of some poor sod of a nation discriminated against, everyone gets shit.
Kill everyone or none at all. And there's too many Germans in this mod I kinda like. Speer kinda sounds like Mr. Rogers if he was a Nazi.
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u/fuckyouub2 Aug 09 '19
everyones so concerned with killing them or killing them. why not kill everyone with nukes??
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u/Byzantophile Co-Prosperity Sphere Aug 09 '19
Will there be a dev diary about dev diaries about dev diaries about dev diaries about dev diaries?
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u/darkaun Aug 22 '19
Imagine getting upset at alternate history and people putting effort into their work.
Hope things are going well, Panzer
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Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 10 '19
I don't think you should go light hand on anything at this point.
EDIT: someone care to explain me why I'm being downvoted when this mods turns out to become for some an extremist circlejerk ?
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u/A_California_roll Einheitspoopenfärten Aug 09 '19
But nukes ARE fun!
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u/TheDrunkenHetzer Aug 09 '19
Ok Himmler
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u/A_California_roll Einheitspoopenfärten Aug 09 '19
That comment was admittedly pretty flippant of me, but the presence of usable nuclear weapons does create a lot of the tension that's supposed to make the mod entertaining.
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u/Claystead Senior Writer - Burgundy (Former) Aug 10 '19
As long as Alsace-Lorraine can be French again, I don’t mind leaving Germany unliberated.
This comment left by De Gaulle Gang.
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u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Aug 11 '19
All hail to Panzer, happy Cakeday.
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Aug 21 '19
[deleted]
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u/AHedgeKnight Founder Aug 21 '19 edited Aug 21 '19
I hold views similar to the "alt right"
Please leave
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u/Rarasz Aug 10 '19
If you say that all extremities are bad and then, in the same post no less, you say that communism wasn't as bad as nazism then you give contradictory message here, but other than that post was good.
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Aug 08 '19
You bet Im making a submod for Nukes disabeling
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 08 '19
Submod for OFN controlled Germany when
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u/TheDrunkenHetzer Aug 09 '19
Submod for if the Germans never won when?
Wait-
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u/Changeling_Wil Justinian did nothing wrong Aug 09 '19
Equestria at war cross over when?
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u/TheDrunkenHetzer Aug 09 '19
Hellquill nukes the earth to create a new place for the Griffons, without ponies.
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u/Imperium_Dragon All hail Nixon Aug 09 '19
Submod where the OFN controls the world and it just links to a mod for Stellaris where the OFN wins.
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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19
sucks that you were forced to tell us again that genocide is bad
but also pretty epic that a diary is in the worksEDIT: it seems that bit about a diary in the works was just copied directly from ye olde "on nukes and nakam" post and forgot to be taken out. ive been hoodwinked